#touchbook IRC Log


IRC Log for 2010-11-09

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[9:48] <alextisserant> hi all
[9:48] <MatthiasF> hi
[9:48] <alextisserant> just to let you know a new release is out
[9:48] <alextisserant> worth to mention: android 2.2, ubuntu 10.10; and kernel supporting 720MHz
[9:49] <alextisserant> http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1261
[9:53] <Mrkva> great
[9:53] <Mrkva> I'll throw my kernel out of window :D
[9:54] <leinir> wait... what? android?!
[9:54] <Mrkva> alextisserant: just to know, where can I get kernel sources?
[9:55] <alextisserant> the sources have been updated on the wiki
[9:55] <Mrkva> great!
[9:55] <alextisserant> http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/Kernel_compilation
[9:55] <alextisserant> see the "Download the sources" section
[9:56] <alextisserant> sources have been updated as well for x-load and u-boot
[9:56] <Mrkva> and what about with suspend to ram? with "echo mem > /sys/power/state", it suspends well, but after wakeup, USB is dead
[9:56] <Mrkva> alextisserant: thanks
[9:56] <alextisserant> mm, didn't know this one
[9:57] <Mrkva> nevermind, thanks a lot
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[11:17] <leinir> gah... why is it wireless still sucks :P
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[11:27] <alextisserant> leinir: on what OS?
[11:27] <leinir> alextisserant: the one which now boots by default, and thus is expected to sort of, you know... work ;)
[11:28] <alextisserant> mm works for me
[11:28] <alextisserant> can't you connect?
[11:29] <leinir> nope, nothing shows up when scanning
[11:29] <leinir> (apart from gregorie's personal network, which seems a somewhat odd thing to ship with ;) )
[11:30] <Mrkva> leinir: :D
[11:30] * Noume (~Noume@f050064188.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #touchbook
[11:30] <Mrkva> I'm going to test it as well in a moment
[11:30] <alextisserant> you know, he's a so open guy ;)
[11:30] <alextisserant> so: is your wifi dongle blinking?
[11:30] <leinir> nope, looking through the holes there's a blue light on, but no flashing
[11:31] <alextisserant> you updated everything, including kernel?
[11:31] <alextisserant> did you play with the wifi on/off check button in the settings?
[11:32] <leinir> i reinstalled everything
[11:32] <alextisserant> (it is checked by default and should not be unchecked)
[11:32] <leinir> and yeah, i did
[11:32] <leinir> however, it also did not work before i tried doing stuff with that button
[11:33] <alextisserant> can you leave it checked, restart, and confirm me it's not blinking when you reach the android desktop?
[11:33] <leinir> alright - also, how do i reboot without forcing the thing to turn off? Feels kind of... nasty ;)
[11:34] <alextisserant> how do you reboot Android on a phone?
[11:34] <leinir> not a clue ;)
[11:34] <Mrkva> unplug battey? :)
[11:35] <Mrkva> *battery
[11:35] <alextisserant> eh eh
[11:35] <alextisserant> same
[11:35] <alextisserant> push power off button
[11:35] <Mrkva> I have dumbphone, so I don't know
[11:36] <leinir> alextisserant: tried, but nothing... if i hold it the thing just turns off :)
[11:37] <alextisserant> yes, that's what I'm saying: you have to press and hold to get the device turn off
[11:37] <alextisserant> same as a phone
[11:37] <leinir> that just cuts the power, though, 's what i mean - feels really ugly to do it that way
[11:38] <leinir> normally you press the power button, menu comes up you tap shut down or power off on, to properly shut down disk access and whatnot...
[11:40] <leinir> well, it was blinking while starting the "desktop", but now it's just on full again
[11:41] <alextisserant> what board rev?
[11:41] <leinir> whatever was in the first bunch that got sent out
[11:41] <leinir> B1
[11:42] * mjrosenb (~mjrosenb@ip68-108-253-68.sb.sd.cox.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[11:43] <alextisserant> so if you go to the wifi settings
[11:43] <alextisserant> and click on "add network"
[11:43] <alextisserant> and enter your ssid + key
[11:44] <leinir> let's try...
[11:45] <leinir> yeah, thought so - not in range
[11:46] <alextisserant> and your dongle is still not blinking
[11:47] <leinir> Nope
[11:47] <alextisserant> and the wifi checkbox was checked and you didn't play with it
[11:47] <leinir> wifi checkbox was checked, didn't play with it
[11:47] <leinir> i'll try rebooting again
[11:49] <leinir> nope, still all non-blinking
[11:49] <alextisserant> damn
[11:50] <alextisserant> anybody else experiencing it?
[11:51] <alextisserant> please file a bug
[11:51] <leinir> was blinking... stopped again
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[12:08] <leinir> buggified
[12:14] <alextisserant> thx
[12:17] <alextisserant> add a comment saying you tried to manually add your wifi network but it didn't help
[12:22] <Mrkva> hm, that torrent sucks. only one peer
[12:23] <leinir> i did, though perhaps a little snidey... sorry, i'm just slightly frustrated to still not have a working device this long after spending a considerable amount of my student money on it ;)
[12:26] <Mrkva> leinir: 2010-09a was quite usable :)
[12:27] <leinir> Mrkva: it sort of kind of was... except i've got the old board with 256 megs of memory, so the only thing that'd run without dying of over-memory-useage was the terminal :P
[12:29] <Mrkva> ah, that sucks
[12:29] <leinir> indeed
[12:29] <Mrkva> but still... you can make your own SW (as I'm trying to)
[12:29] <leinir> that kind of made me feel somewhat underappreciated for being an early adopter
[12:30] <leinir> i know, ai is a tiny company, i was silly for doing it if i don't have the time to tinker, and it's no personal thing of any sort - it's just frustrating
[12:31] <MatthiasF> Mrkva: so, what are you going to use for your SW ?
[12:31] <Mrkva> leinir: you know, if you buy a new computer, you still need to install software to it :)
[12:32] <Mrkva> MatthiasF: I'm still trying to make my decision between Qt based thing and something lightweight based on openbox and GTK
[12:32] <leinir> Mrkva: Yes, i know - and i do. My frustration stems from the fact that this device is utterly and completely useless without wireless access. Never mind the power management and that, i have a power socket. But without wifi, it's mostly a brick. Pretty brick, but a brick.
[12:33] <MatthiasF> Mrkva: you should know that the only reason Qt is bigger than GTK is that it's much more than a toolkit
[12:34] <Mrkva> well, nowdays, most of the computers are.. but I think I've got your point
[12:34] <MatthiasF> Mrkva: just checked... Qt is actually smaller than GTK on my system
[12:35] <Mrkva> MatthiasF: I'm not surprised :)
[12:35] <MatthiasF> Qt: 24MB Glib+GTK: 20+31MB
[12:36] <MatthiasF> I don't know why but I hear everywhere "Qt sucks, Qt eats your RAM, Qt is heavy"
[12:36] <Mrkva> yeah, same here
[12:36] <MatthiasF> don't think GTK is really used on phones though :)
[12:36] <leinir> MatthiasF: Mostly said by people who haven't got anything better to do than slack off other people's work :)
[12:37] <MatthiasF> same people who say C++ is slow :)
[12:37] <leinir> Yup :)
[12:37] <MatthiasF> while Qt painting system outperforms cairo :)
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[12:37] <MatthiasF> Mrkva: so why did you say something lightweight based on openbox and GTK ?
[12:38] <MatthiasF> [OT]: btw Qt 4.7.1 released today. don't forget to upgrade :)
[12:39] <Mrkva> I was even thinking about using wayland instead of X
[12:40] <MatthiasF> nice! I'm quite fond of wayland too
[12:40] <Mrkva> the problem is that (if I'm not wrong) I won't be able to run old fashioned X apps
[12:40] <MatthiasF> the bigger problem is won't work with SGX
[12:41] <MatthiasF> X compatibility is possible (but you don't need that for embedded)
[12:41] <MatthiasF> Wayland already has gtk and Qt port
[12:41] <dpb> they have the X compatibility planned
[12:41] <Mrkva> MatthiasF: well, wayland doesn't have a generic framebuffer driver?
[12:42] <MatthiasF> wayland need KMS and GEM
[12:42] <dpb> Mrkva: http://wayland.freedesktop.org/architecture.html
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[12:43] <MatthiasF> It may be possible to implement Wayland on top of PowerVR WSEGL
[12:43] <MatthiasF> but I didn't look closely if it would work
[12:45] <Mrkva> so we need (preferably) opensource graphics drivers that support KMS and GEM?
[12:45] <Mrkva> so, almost impossible task
[12:45] <Mrkva> thanks :D
[12:46] <MatthiasF> yeah, you'd need to RE SGX :)
[12:47] <Mrkva> and I guess there isn't public specification as well
[12:48] <MatthiasF> did you smoke rhubarb this morning ?
[12:48] <Mrkva> me?
[12:48] <MatthiasF> yeah...
[12:48] <Mrkva> it can be smoked?
[12:48] <MatthiasF> no idea, maybe if you're already high enough :)
[12:49] <Mrkva> MatthiasF: what do you mean? that that was a dumb question and the specification of course doesn't exist?
[12:49] <MatthiasF> yeah
[12:50] <MatthiasF> you know embedded graphic chip manufacturers are more secret about their chipset than area 51 about their aliens :)
[12:50] <Mrkva> yeah
[12:51] <MatthiasF> but I think Wayland on WSEGL should be doable
[12:52] <Mrkva> I think it can be reversed
[12:52] <Mrkva> well, not with my knowledge :)
[12:52] <MatthiasF> good luck with that
[12:52] <MatthiasF> if you use only Qt apps, you can simply use QWS which abstract WSEGL for you
[12:53] <MatthiasF> but in the future, QWS is being replaced by QPA
[12:53] * Noume (~Noume@f050064188.adsl.alicedsl.de) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[12:54] <MatthiasF> just in case: QWS=Qt Windowing System (aka Qt/Embedded) and QPA = Qt Platform Abstraction)
[12:55] <MatthiasF> but I think WSEGL wasn't ported to QPA yet
[12:55] <MatthiasF> so you have 3 choice:
[12:55] <MatthiasF> 1) continue using QWS which is deprecated but not going to disappear soon
[12:55] <MatthiasF> 2) port WSEGL to QPA
[12:56] <Mrkva> 3) create full-blown SGX graphics driver
[12:56] <Mrkva> any volunteers? :)
[12:56] <MatthiasF> 3) port WSEGL to wayland, and use the Wayland QPA port
[12:56] <MatthiasF> 3) would also allows to run GTK apps in case you need this feature
[12:57] <MatthiasF> 4) RE SGX with KMS and GEM support and get it working with Wayland (see you in 2016)
[12:57] <MatthiasF> the problem of solution 4 is that the world will end 21 December 2012 anyway
[12:57] <MatthiasF> so it's not tractable...
[12:58] <MatthiasF> I think QWS is not a bad choice if you want something this year
[12:58] <Mrkva> :D
[13:00] <Mrkva> MatthiasF: well, the nouveau folks did it :)
[13:01] <leinir> hm... seems i found another bug with this one... uImage2 is broken on the server :P
[13:02] <MatthiasF> Mrkva: I don't think RedHat is really interested in ARM hardware :)
[13:03] <MatthiasF> maybe if Always Innovative would pay someone full-time to RE SGX...
[13:06] <Mrkva> hm
[13:06] <Mrkva> the SDK on the web was updated almost two years ago. I don't see why they still won't open their drivers
[13:06] <MatthiasF> Gentoo release their ebuilds so early, the corresponding source tars don't have enough time to propagate through all sourceforge mirrors...
[13:07] <Mrkva> MatthiasF: :D
[13:07] <MatthiasF> Mrkva: because that's how embedded GPU industry work
[13:08] <MatthiasF> It's stupid but it is how it is. and there is nothing you can do about that
[13:08] <MatthiasF> you can only work with what you have
[13:08] <MatthiasF> and that's why QWS seems the best solution
[13:21] <Maeslin> on a somewhat related/unrelated note
[13:21] <Maeslin> I friggin HATE QFN chip packages
[13:21] <Maeslin> giant PITA to work with by hand.
[13:23] <alextisserant> leinir: thanks, it has been corrected
[13:23] <leinir> alextisserant: yeah... still leaves the android issue, though, which is... somewhat disturbing ;)
[13:23] <alextisserant> so, I just re-tried on a B1 256 unit
[13:24] <alextisserant> did you eventually "add" your wifi network in the wifi settinfs?
[13:24] <alextisserant> *settings
[13:24] <leinir> Yeah, i added it, still nothing
[13:25] <Mrkva> MatthiasF: and by the way, aren't SGX drivers (the kernel part) opensource:
[13:25] <alextisserant> and did you reboot since you added your network?
[13:25] <leinir> Yup
[13:26] <MatthiasF> Mrkva: as much as nvidia drivers are opensource
[13:26] <MatthiasF> bare minimum to receive command buffers from their closed-source userspace
[13:26] <MatthiasF> because closed source kernel code is illegal
[13:27] <Mrkva> no, it isn't
[13:27] <Mrkva> just distribution of it :)
[13:28] <MatthiasF> yeah, of course...
[13:28] <alextisserant> leinir: wpa or wep?
[13:29] <leinir> wpa psk
[13:29] <leinir> but that's not the issue, it isn't finding /any/ networks at all, and there's four or five around here
[13:29] <leinir> (which it finds fine in aios)
[13:31] <leinir> dinner - back in 45 minutes or so
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[13:38] <drewis> i have also experienced the issue with wifi not finding networks like leinir has. A reinstall seems to have resolved it. When i was troubleshooting this message appeared over and over in logcat. 'W/wpa_supplicant( 164:0xa4): Failed to initiate AP scan' of which i could find no info as to the cause.
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[13:48] <alextisserant> drewis: did you have to add your network in the settings to get it work?
[14:16] <Mrkva> MatthiasF: well, I've done a little bit digging... and it looks impossible
[14:16] <MatthiasF> Wayland on WSEGL ?
[14:16] <Mrkva> nope. RE
[14:16] <MatthiasF> ah, of course
[14:16] <MatthiasF> you were really considering that option ?
[14:17] <Mrkva> I'd really like to see full-blown 3D acceleration on my touchbook. so yes
[14:17] <MatthiasF> the closed driver dosn't work on your touchbook ?
[14:18] <Mrkva> maybe it does. but as full-blown, I mean opensource :)
[14:19] <MatthiasF> as I said, you'd need an OEM or a consulting company to pay an engineer fulltime. it's not a quick hobby task
[14:22] <Mrkva> as I (maybe) said, I'm a student, so there's no problem in time.. but still, it'd need me to study to much from the kernel. and I'm a lazy person
[14:24] * Martix (~martix@4.177.broadband3.iol.cz) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[14:24] <MatthiasF> so are you going to port Wayland on WSEGL, QPA on WSEGL, or simply use QWS ?
[14:25] <Mrkva> I'm ging to.... well, not sure :D
[14:25] <Mrkva> oh come on! Fish wallpaper!?
[14:25] <MatthiasF> if you're lazy, I'd recommend QWS
[14:25] <Mrkva> or just use X :D
[14:26] <MatthiasF> you still want to fit your OS on 128MB ?
[14:27] <Mrkva> tb has 256M
[14:28] <MatthiasF> NAND ?
[14:28] <Mrkva> yes
[14:28] <MatthiasF> well maybe a minimal X server would fit then
[14:29] <MatthiasF> it depends how much apps you want
[14:30] <Mrkva> MatthiasF: ever heard about slax? :)
[14:31] <MatthiasF> no, I'm a faithful Gentoo user
[14:32] <Mrkva> kde3 destkop with office suite and all that stuff in 256megs
[14:32] <MatthiasF> kde4 is probably much bigger :)
[14:33] <MatthiasF> but it should be doable to have a minimal install in 256MB
[14:34] <MatthiasF> you'd actually just would have to emerge my Gentoo KDE Cross Overlay :D
[14:35] <Mrkva> why kde4?
[14:36] <MatthiasF> because it's much better !
[14:36] <Mrkva> but yeah, I want to try it
[14:36] <MatthiasF> and Qt 4.7 is much better for Embedded than Qt 3
[14:36] <Mrkva> MatthiasF: but what about Qt without KDE?
[14:36] <MatthiasF> wow, I still have my cross kde system here
[14:37] <MatthiasF> 824MB unstripped unsquashed
[14:37] <Mrkva> okay
[14:37] <MatthiasF> Qt without KDE is great if you don't need any apps :)
[14:37] <Mrkva> I have that famous android system here... and have no clue how to control it :D
[14:37] <MatthiasF> Qt is 24MB without webkit
[14:38] <MatthiasF> and it doesn't need X
[14:39] <MatthiasF> but qt-webkit alone is 20MB. and you will probably want a web browser :)
[14:40] <MatthiasF> can you save user data on the NAND ?
[14:40] <Mrkva> yes, but it has limited number of writes
[14:41] <MatthiasF> many times less than normal flash storage ?
[14:41] <Mrkva> I think it's comparable
[14:41] <MatthiasF> that's not an issue then
[14:42] <Mrkva> but you can buy new flash storage.
[14:42] <Mrkva> but not the new nand
[14:42] <MatthiasF> I thought you had to flash it or something
[14:43] <MatthiasF> do you still have my overlay URL ?
[14:45] <Mrkva> somewhere :)
[14:49] <Mrkva> hm, one thing about android - I don't like it
[14:50] <MatthiasF> I don't know it
[14:51] <Mrkva> Gregoire is using WEP!???
[14:53] <Mrkva> and by the way... wifi is working here fine (WPA)
[14:59] <alextisserant> (Mrkva: depends on the hour of the day and the testing purposes...)
[15:00] <Mrkva> alextisserant: :)
[15:07] <leinir> Mrkva: Randomly, have you spoken with the QtMoko guys? :)
[15:08] <MatthiasF> leinir: is that Qt 4 ?
[15:08] <leinir> Yup :)
[15:09] <MatthiasF> I dont see any web browser Oo
[15:09] <MatthiasF> ah there is one in screenshots
[15:11] <MatthiasF> but it would need to scale for a tablet screen...
[15:15] <Mrkva> MatthiasF: well, the main problem with Qt apps is they're usually bound with kdelibs
[15:15] <MatthiasF> not all of them
[15:16] <leinir> and the kdelibs tiny and mobile profiles are not quite ready yet - even though they are getting very close :)
[15:16] <Mrkva> I've said "usually"
[15:16] <MatthiasF> I can provide you a web browser, pdf viewer, media player and irc client (all Qt only and very minimal :) )
[15:17] <MatthiasF> ah and also a file manager
[15:17] <Mrkva> hm, I have to check it :)
[15:17] <Mrkva> the problem is with office suite. but hell, I haven't used it for maybe half a year
[15:18] <MatthiasF> leinir: I don't get many updates on planetkde about these profiles. it seems there is very little communication about this
[15:18] <leinir> MatthiasF: There isn't so much communication, because they're busy working on it rather than talking about it... However, i seem to remember something a few days ago, let me try and look...
[15:19] <MatthiasF> leinir: I get only blog posts about this weird plasma mobile thing :)
[15:19] <Mrkva> and also, there's nothing like Qt only WM, AFAIK
[15:19] <leinir> http://ervin.ipsquad.net/2010/11/04/kde-platform-profiles-help-me-help-you/
[15:19] <MatthiasF> Mrkva: I also have an X WM :)
[15:19] <leinir> MatthiasF: *giggles* How is plasma-mobile weird? :)
[15:19] <leinir> it's just another plasma shell :)
[15:20] <MatthiasF> I don't know maybe it's because I don't have flash and only saw it from screenshots :)
[15:20] <leinir> Oh right, yeah :)
[15:20] <leinir> It's somewhat more impressive looking in action ;)
[15:20] <Mrkva> MatthiasF: what WM? :)
[15:20] <MatthiasF> a Qt only X Window manager
[15:21] <MatthiasF> http://gitorious.org/qt-window-manager
[15:21] <MatthiasF> I actually developed all these with the touchbook in mind :)
[15:22] <MatthiasF> but developing the WM made me realize how crazy X compositing was. that's why I'm interested in wayland
[15:23] <leinir> Hehe, yeah, it kinda is ;)
[15:23] <Mrkva> MatthiasF: hmm, any more info about it? (eg. screenshots, possibility of styling...)
[15:23] <leinir> right, zzz time for me now :)
[15:23] <MatthiasF> leinir: I understand now why KWin has so much trouble doing it :)
[15:24] <MatthiasF> Mrkva: screenshot would be an oxygen styled tabbar. a text field, notifications icons and a clock
[15:25] <Mrkva> ah
[15:25] <MatthiasF> leinir: does KDE Mobile drop any kde dependency ? because that's the real problem
[15:25] <MatthiasF> Mrkva: actually it's a fullscreen window manager. there is no window decorations
[15:26] <leinir> catch me tomorrow, zzz time :P
[15:26] <MatthiasF> leinir: ok, I should be sleeping too
[15:27] <drewis> alextisserant: after the reinstall the wifi scanned and found my network. but before it would not see any networks. manually adding mine through the android gui did not work either. i even added an entry to wpa_supplicant.conf i am using the b1 board w/ 256mb ram
[15:28] <alextisserant> ok
[15:28] <alextisserant> I have experienced the same (reboot after adding make it work)
[15:29] <Mrkva> drewis: I had no problem with wifi :)
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[17:12] <Maeslin> can someone try expanding http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/release/latest/modules.tgz ?
[17:12] <Maeslin> the gzip works ok but then the .tar seems to be bad
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[19:28] <alextisserant> Maeslin: tar xzvf should definitely work
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[19:32] <Maeslin> yeap that worked, thanks
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