#touchbook IRC Log


IRC Log for 2010-03-09

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[0:23] <torpor> g'day
[0:23] <torpor> anyone done any work on getting some of the Pandora emu's going on Touchbook? I've been thinking about spending some time playing catchup on the Emu front for Touchbook .. just wondering if anyones got this working in any capacity yet?
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[0:44] <josch> torpor: what do you mean by 'work on getting emus going'? check some emus for linux - apart from some with extensive x86 inline assembly they are cross plattform. you can also check in packages.debian.org because debian maintains it's own armel port
[0:58] <torpor> i mean whether anyone is actually using their touchbooks to play some emu's, and if so which ones?
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[10:50] <Drisanna> Is there any word about the "early March" batch and whether or not it's actually going to fill the entire queue?
[10:52] * Mrkva wanted to ask same question
[10:53] <Mrkva> but I think I'll wait till friday (half of the march)
[11:14] <gregoiregentil> Drisanna: it's under production right now and it should fill almost all the remaining queue.
[11:15] <torpor> gregoiregentil, any chance of an upgrade somewhere down the line? i want 512megs.
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[11:16] <gregoiregentil> For free, unfortunately, no. But we could sell you a 512MB board. Contact alexandre@...
[11:16] <torpor> i want to buy it, how does that work? cost?
[11:16] <gregoiregentil> Contact alexandre@..., he will reply to you
[11:16] <torpor> i wouldn't expect it for free ..
[11:17] <mjr> since gregoiregentil is around, may I ask how's the usb stability situation that some people were having problems with early on?
[11:18] <Mrkva> by the way... anyone using touchbook with GPS for geocaching?
[11:18] <torpor> okay, mail sent!
[11:18] <torpor> :)
[11:18] <mjr> I wouldn't geocache a touchbook ;P
[11:18] <gregoiregentil> There is a video of GPS on website (in my car)
[11:18] <Mrkva> gregoiregentil: I've seen it
[11:19] <Mrkva> I'm just asking if someone has designed any protective case for the TB
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[11:19] <torpor> hey gregoiregentil it is good to catch up with you in IRC
[11:19] <leinir> gregoiregentil: i would suggest posting the option to purchase a 512meg system board on the forum - i'm sure there'd be a good few orders for that one :)
[11:19] <torpor> i never got a recipe working for tbWakeBreaker, but the source is working great!
[11:19] <gregoiregentil> sure!
[11:20] <gregoiregentil> torpor: tbWakeBreaker was on my todo list. Don't remember what we discussed
[11:20] <torpor> http://w1xer.de/touchbook/tbWakeBreaker/index.html
[11:20] <torpor> You wanted me to pack it into a recipe, but i could never find the time to get it to work.
[11:20] <torpor> so i just put up the sources for people to download and build on their touchbooks themselves.
[11:20] <gregoiregentil> let me take a look now. Hold on
[11:20] <Drisanna> " <gregoiregentil> Drisanna: it's under production right now and it should fill almost all the remaining queue." <---- When is it due to ship? I want to make sure I have the money available when my card is charged.
[11:20] <torpor> but anyway it would be useful for programmers who want to build OpenGL ES apps for (and on) the Touchbook ..
[11:21] <gregoiregentil> Drisanna: I would say charging should occur next week
[11:21] <torpor> i really appreciate that you put the compiler onboard in the default image - this makes it really easy to target the touchbook - so i ported a demo app to prove that its useful to use the touchbook itself to build 3D games ..
[11:21] <torpor> only thing is, in the last OS release, onboard compiler broke! opkg install libstdc++-dev and so on ..
[11:22] <gregoiregentil> can you remind me the exact list of dependencies for your game?
[11:22] <torpor> sure, just a second
[11:23] <torpor> -laiGL -lm -lopenal
[11:23] <torpor> that is it! :)
[11:23] <torpor> but the problem is the onboard compiler needs the stdc++-dev package installed, and this is not done by default.
[11:24] <gregoiregentil> let me see if I can quickly do a recipe
[11:24] <torpor> i didn't get around to adding accelerometer support yet, but it would be nice.
[11:25] <torpor> its a GL demo app, btw, not a big fancy game, per se - but perhaps a little more interesting than aiTeapot .. :)
[11:26] <torpor> and it certainly has all the basic framework there to make more interesting games possible. consider it a lightweight version of Crazy Tanks, only with SOURCE
[11:27] * leinir hopes to get a Gluon Player on the Touchbook at some point :)
[11:33] <torpor> gregoiregentil, the thing is about wakebreaker: its a source package, and in my opinion it should be installed like your other sample source apps (albeit, perhaps not in /usr/bin/ai .. ) so the recipe should *just* put the sources in place ..
[11:34] <torpor> so that new users/developers can go to /usr/bin/ai/tbWakeBreaker, type 'make' and get themselves a built sample app that gives them what they need to continue development
[11:34] <torpor> i never really figured out how to make the recipe properly treat the package like that .. i don't think we shoudl include a binary in this package - just copy the sources in place.
[11:34] <torpor> the sources are configured to build *on* the touchbook natively - no cross-compiling, you see ..
[11:35] <torpor> so thats what i was intending to do ..
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[11:42] <gregoiregentil> torpor: http://pastebin.com/tayYg7rE
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[12:05] <torpor> gregoiregentil, opkg install libstdc++-dev
[12:06] <torpor> and do *not* cross-compile this .. its set up to be built *on* the touchbook, like aiTeapot
[12:08] <torpor> and btw, i would recommend making libstdc++-dev part of the factory install on the touchbooks .. the compilers are onboard, and you've got sources onboard, but the last pieces of the puzzle: dev libs and headers are not onboard. so its an incomplete setup for compiler-onboard (building software *on* the touchbook, not through bitbake)
[12:08] <Corsac> well, c++ libs aren't exactly part of an embedded base system :)
[12:08] <torpor> they are if there is a compiler onboard
[12:09] <torpor> and there is no way to build the bundled apps in /usr/bin/ai/examples unless you fix this problem
[12:09] <torpor> and: touchbook no longer qualifies as 'embedded' ..
[12:09] <Corsac> I'm not sure it's really a *problem*
[12:09] <Corsac> torpor: it still uses openembedded :)
[12:10] <Corsac> anyway, it's not my call, I just think it's a wast of space and time
[12:10] <Corsac> especially since opkg is really convenient
[12:11] <torpor> i think you don't understand the situation
[12:11] <torpor> a) the compiler is already included in the default OS (as it should be, after all the touchbook is a real computer)
[12:11] <torpor> b) its not possible to actually *use* the compiler though, because the -dev libs for stdc++ are not included
[12:12] <torpor> and c) there are sources on the touchbook already, to give new developers a helping hand in bootstrapping their efforts.
[12:12] <Mrkva> well, I'd like to ask
[12:12] <torpor> those sources are useless unless this is fixed
[12:12] <Mrkva> why USE compiler on such a tiny machine
[12:12] <torpor> its not a tiny machine
[12:12] <Mrkva> especially if there is low space
[12:12] <torpor> it builds software *quite* well
[12:12] <torpor> takes about a minute to build 20k lines of code
[12:12] <torpor> this is quite acceptable
[12:13] <Corsac> torpor: sure it builds stuff quite well
[12:13] <Mrkva> torpor: and 19k of lines are comments, right? :)
[12:13] <torpor> and if it encourages further development for the tb environment without requiring all the hateful bloat of an external OE toolchain, then it is very welcome imho.
[12:13] <Corsac> and you can install stuff quite well too
[12:13] <torpor> Mrkva, no.
[12:13] <Mrkva> torpor: that was only joke :)
[12:13] <Corsac> and I don't think much OS ship a compiler by default as part of the base system
[12:13] <torpor> the point is: the compiler *is* onboard, but its missing one small piece of the puzzle to actually work pperly.
[12:13] <torpor> Corsac, this fact is an abomination, a pox on software development.
[12:14] <torpor> a new-generation computer should ship with its own compiler.
[12:14] <Corsac> sure
[12:14] <torpor> cross-compiling, especially using OE, blows ass
[12:14] <mongrelcat> gregoiregentil: since you're here, I think I might need an RMA
[12:14] <Corsac> sorry I just thought it was an actual interesting conversation
[12:14] <torpor> i find it quite sexy to be using my touchbook to build apps, actually. its a very refreshing break from cross-compiling.
[12:15] <Corsac> that won't happen again, feel free to keep going alone
[12:15] <torpor> i feel very strongly that the removal of compilers from a base unix system has always been a big mistake. there was a time when no unix workstation was complete unless it had its own compiler. the touchbook is an opportunity to prove the power of such a configuration
[12:15] <torpor> and it really doesn't take much space
[12:16] <mongrelcat> well i have to go now
[12:16] <Corsac> torpor: think about global warming
[12:16] <torpor> if you have a touchbook, look in /usr/bin/ai/examples
[12:16] <mongrelcat> but i will bring it up later on
[12:17] <torpor> Corsac, cross-compiling on a fat power-hungry machine, or local compiling on a fast, cheap, light processor? i know which one saves my chickens from doom.. ;)
[12:17] <torpor> the fact that there is a compiler, and working sample code, in the touchbook elevates it above a lot of systems in my inventory. it has made porting apps very, very fun.
[12:17] * torpor looks at the 80gig partition just for cross-compilers on his main dev machine ..
[12:18] <gregoiregentil> torpor: I will integrate it only if I can cross compile
[12:18] <gregoiregentil> the log I pastebin is a cross-compilation
[12:18] <gregoiregentil> something is probably missing
[12:18] <Corsac> torpor: sure, then why not build g++ and libstdc++ too, I'm sure it's fun to do it there :)
[12:19] <torpor> do you cross-compile /usr/bin/ai/examples/aiTeapot?
[12:19] <gregoiregentil> yes
[12:19] <torpor> i see no object files by default
[12:20] <torpor> gregoiregentil, the pastebin shows that the compile is missing because you do not have libstdc++-dev available
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[12:20] <torpor> i think you should be integrating this as a source-only package. you do not cross-compile aiTeapot, you only install the sources to that path. if you are cross-compiling, where are the object files and where is the final bin? there isn't any in a fresh install of AIOS.
[12:20] <torpor> tbWakebreaker - like aiTeapot - should be a source-only install, leaving the tree there for the new touchbook developer to discover and use.
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[12:22] <torpor> Corsac, for such a task, cross-compiling is a necessary evil. i do not advocate building kernel+modules+libs with the onboard compiler, only sample apps and other user-space stuff..
[12:22] <torpor> go to /usr/bin/ai/exmaples/gl/teapot, type make.
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[12:25] <torpor> gregoiregentil, two things: just install the sources as you do for aiTeapot, and include libstdc++-dev in the BASE packages list
[12:26] <gregoiregentil> I've managed to cross-compile it
[12:26] <torpor> then new users can "cd /usr/bin/ai/examples/tbWakeBreaker && make" and end up with a working 3D code-base.
[12:26] <torpor> ok
[12:28] <torpor> but please do not ignore my plea to have libstdc++-dev included in BASE for new releases of AIOS. the compiler is already in BASE, but is unusable until libstdc++-dev is in as well ..
[12:28] <gregoiregentil> I will investigate
[12:31] <torpor> you can easily see the problem yourself if you go to /usr/bin/ai/examples/teapot on a fresh AIOS install and type make - you will see the problem immediately
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[12:51] <torpor> hooray - 512meg board upgrade ordered and confirmed! :)
[12:51] <torpor> thank you alex!
[12:51] <leinir> Wooh! \o/
[12:51] <leinir> What sort of price for it? :)
[12:52] <torpor> see above: $200
[12:52] <leinir> aah right :)
[12:52] <leinir> Not bad :)
[12:52] <torpor> a bit steep, but it will guarantee that i keep using my touchbook instead of chuck it in a month or two .. ;)
[12:53] <leinir> incl shipping, or?
[12:53] <torpor> yes i guess ..
[12:54] <leinir> And you are... where in the world? :)
[12:54] <torpor> austria
[12:54] <leinir> Right :)
[12:54] <Mrkva> well, sounds good
[12:54] <Mrkva> you can buy two ethernet cards (or wifi card) and have a nice router :)
[12:55] <leinir> That does sound relatively fair, then - it's got to be shipped protected, after all :)
[12:56] <torpor> well i will use my old board for some robotics
[12:56] <torpor> or pack it with my beagleboard and use it for sound or something ..
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[13:16] <torpor> wiki update:
[13:16] <torpor> http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/TbWakeBreaker
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[13:20] <Drisanna> gregoiregentil, I have one more question, having to do with California's eWaste tax.
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[13:20] <Mrkva> Drisanna: well, taxes are evil
[13:20] <Drisanna> I was unable to get a satisfactory answer from customer service.
[13:21] <gregoiregentil> OK. You are not satisfied with the ewaste tax? I can clarify this
[13:21] <Mrkva> Drisanna: according to customer service I'll pay california sales tax. and VAT in my country. can you confirm this, gregoiregentil ?
[13:22] <gregoiregentil> Drisanna: are you in the US or oversea?
[13:22] <Drisanna> I don't live in California, and I am not subject to the tax. Vendors are not supposed to charge non-residents for the tax.
[13:22] <gregoiregentil> Drisanna: are you in the US or oversea?
[13:23] <mongrelcat> I live in DE and was charged the tax
[13:23] <Drisanna> I am in the U.S.
[13:23] <Drisanna> You should not have been, mongrelcat.
[13:23] <mongrelcat> I am pretty sure that it applies to all states
[13:23] <Drisanna> No, it doesn't.
[13:23] <Drisanna> There is no federal eWaste tax, and California is currently the only state with one enacted.
[13:23] <mongrelcat> that's not what i meant
[13:24] <gregoiregentil> Each US state has its own policy regarding recycling and other state have their own tax/fee
[13:24] <mongrelcat> i meant that it applies to all electronics sold in CA, not just to those sold and delivered to CA
[13:24] <Drisanna> Other states do NOT have it, gregoiregentil.
[13:24] <gregoiregentil> Yes. Some states have.
[13:24] <Drisanna> And according to California's page on the tax:
[13:24] <Drisanna> Electronic Waste Recycling (eWaste) Fee - FAQ
[13:24] <Drisanna> * * *
[13:24] <Drisanna> Are any sales exempt from the fee?
[13:24] <Drisanna> Yes. The fee does not apply to the sale of a video display device that is any of the following:
[13:24] <Drisanna> * Used and not refurbished.
[13:24] <Drisanna> * Part of a motor vehicle, as defined in Vehicle Code section 415, or a component part of a motor vehicle assembled by or for a vehicle manufacturer or franchised dealer. This includes replacement parts for use in a motor vehicle.
[13:24] <Drisanna> * Is contained within, or a part of a piece of industrial, commercial, or medical equipment, including monitoring or control equipment.
[13:24] <Drisanna> * Contained within a clothes washer, clothes dryer, refrigerator, refrigerator and freezer, microwave oven, conventional oven or range, dishwasher, room air conditioner, dehumidifier, or air purifier.
[13:24] <Drisanna> * A sale for resale.
[13:24] <Drisanna> * Shipped by you to a location outside of California. (emphasis added)
[13:25] <gregoiregentil> OK. Drisanna: stop one second and let me explain
[13:25] <Drisanna> Go ahead, gregoiregentil. :)
[13:25] <gregoiregentil> Each US state has its own policy for recycling. Some have taxes, some have fee, and a few have nothing. It's virtually impossible for us to apply a different policy for each state in the shopping cart.
[13:26] <Drisanna> You don't have to.
[13:26] <gregoiregentil> so what I decided to be fair is to apply the same to everybody in the US. I recently changed the lavel
[13:26] <gregoiregentil> label to "eWaste fee" instead of taxes.
[13:26] <gregoiregentil> It's MORE than fair because for some states, it costs us even much more than the percentage that will apply
[13:27] <torpor> its illegal though
[13:27] <Drisanna> It's wrong. You are not required by any other state to charge any sort of fee. You are required by California to charge a fee ONLY for those units sold in California.
[13:27] <torpor> you are breaking the law if you are charging taxes for someone who is not subject to that tax
[13:27] <torpor> in Europe, you can be fined for doing this
[13:27] <gregoiregentil> Torpor: it's why we call it "fee" and not anymore tax
[13:27] <torpor> it doesn't matter
[13:27] <Drisanna> Well, it's still illegal.
[13:27] <torpor> what you call it is irrelevant
[13:28] <torpor> you really must not do this
[13:28] <torpor> *only* charge the tax for california residents
[13:28] <Drisanna> Exactly.
[13:28] <gregoiregentil> Drisanna (and it's the same for any other person): you should cancel your order if you don't accept to pay the fee. I won't remove this because I have to pay each state for the recycling fee
[13:28] <torpor> it would take a single complaint to the EU commission for imports and then all of your deliveries to europe will be subject to seize and excise
[13:29] <Drisanna> I do business in the state of Maryland. I can ONLY charge Maryland residents sales tax.
[13:29] <mongrelcat> I think it's perfectly acceptable to pass that charge onto the consumer
[13:29] <torpor> you do not have to pay each state for the recycling fee!!!
[13:29] <mongrelcat> that happens all the time with other gov't regulations - would you rather they just raised the price and not told you why?
[13:29] <torpor> only california is requiring it
[13:29] <Drisanna> If you can show me that you have to pay to other states, gregoiregentil, I will accept that. Especially if you can show that you ahve to pay a fee to Maryland because you sold me a computer.
[13:29] <torpor> you should only charge the tax for california residents.
[13:30] <gregoiregentil> To add more information, I have even lead a group of manufacturer to compliant against the various states, so that THE FEDERAL has a recycling tax fee
[13:30] <gregoiregentil> you can read more information here:
[13:30] <Mrkva> torpor: go to hell with EU commission. I hate this Bruxelles bureaucrats
[13:30] <Mrkva> torpor: and yes, I live in EU too
[13:30] <luxurien> Hello world ( bonjour ! )
[13:30] <gregoiregentil> http://groups.google.com/group/stop-ecotax-per-state
[13:30] <torpor> piss off if you don't like it, complaining to me won't change a thing.
[13:30] <torpor> the point is this: you are illegally collecting taxes.
[13:30] <mongrelcat> Is this seriously a flame war over a 10 dollar fee?
[13:31] <Mrkva> mongrelcat: looks like it is
[13:31] <Mrkva> torpor: yes, but that's not a reason for seizing other people goods
[13:31] <torpor> yes, it is.
[13:31] <Drisanna> gregoiregentil, can you please list the states for which you are required to pay an eco-tax or fee? And give me a citation to the applicable law or regulation?
[13:31] <torpor> if you don't like it, don't do international business.
[13:32] <gregoiregentil> torpor: so when Verizon charges you $30 for opening an account, is it illegal? It's just a fee
[13:32] <Mrkva> torpor: no. it isn't. NOONE should care WHAT I'm receiving by mail.
[13:32] <torpor> its illegal if its in any way bonded to a tax incitement, which your eWaste fee *is*
[13:33] <mongrelcat> I am pretty sure that Verizon's fees are at least partially grounded in telecom taxes
[13:33] <torpor> absolutely and verizon are required by law to explain that to you in the terms
[13:33] <gregoiregentil> torpor: OK. then consider that it's the tax for California, and for all other states, it's a fee
[13:33] <torpor> read their terms, you will see it.
[13:33] <gregoiregentil> Yes. I read their terms because I bought a mobile very recently
[13:34] <Mrkva> and IANAL it's not illegal
[13:34] <torpor> sorry, but no. you are breaking the law gregoire, plain and simple. you cannot hide your tax in a fee for some states and a tax for others.
[13:34] <Mrkva> torpor: you're charging the same price for everyne
[13:34] <Drisanna> gregoiregentil, if you bought one of my hand knit sweaters, and I charged you 6% tax on it, I would be breaking the law. You are not a Maryland resident, and are not subject to Maryland sales tax. Even though California also charges a sales tax, I don't do business in California so I don't have to charge you California sales tax either.
[13:34] <torpor> being pissed off about these state taxes will not change your liability if a complaint is made.
[13:34] <gregoiregentil> Drisanna: the label has been changed
[13:35] <gregoiregentil> it's not any more a tax, but it's a fee
[13:35] <mongrelcat> I believe Drisanna is trying to assert that calling it a fee doesn't make it legal
[13:35] <torpor> this still does not work: because you are required to notify california residents that you are collecting the tax!
[13:35] <Drisanna> Then it's part of the price of the unit?
[13:35] <mongrelcat> which i'm not sure on the legality of
[13:35] <Drisanna> If so, you're mis-advertising the price of your computers.
[13:36] <Mrkva> i'd bet it's price of the unit. and if the order is shipped to california, AI sends this price as a tax to the state customs. if not, it increases AI's profit
[13:36] <Mrkva> so, it's perfectly legal
[13:36] <torpor> this is a flame war because gregoire is too lazy to add code to his order shipment system that detects california shipments and responds with the legal details.
[13:36] <torpor> which doesn't make sense
[13:37] <torpor> given the technical proficiency already demonstrated in other areas
[13:37] <Drisanna> It's not a flame war. It's a sincere question.
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[13:41] <Mrkva> gregoiregentil: if I may ask another taxes-related question (and I hope it won't turn into a flamewar again). I don't there's a way to not paying VAT/sales tax if I live outside US? because I'll pay VAT in my country and I really don't want to pay taxes twice
[13:41] <gregoiregentil> To close up this flame, I will update the terms and conditions to explain that it's basically a fee for recycling that applies to ANY order (which covers the taxes for those in California).
[13:42] <gregoiregentil> you don't pay tax in the shopping cart when you order oversea
[13:42] <gregoiregentil> We are forced to declare a value on the box when we are shipping it
[13:43] <gregoiregentil> and then customs in some countries are very picky and they apply taxes. Other are less picky. It's unfortunately something that we can't control
[13:43] <azaghal> And customs in some countries are just plain greedy :)
[13:43] <Drisanna> gregoiregentil, you aren't required to pay any eco-fees except in the state where your company is.
[13:43] <Drisanna> So the Illinois fee, for example, doesn't apply to you (unless you have a factory in Illinois?)
[13:45] <Mrkva> gregoiregentil: I know about laws in mine country. And I've studied a little california tax laws - so I know there's something like sales tax (20% or something like that). is this applied to oversea orders?
[13:45] <gregoiregentil> Drisanna: No.
[13:45] <gregoiregentil> that's not correct
[13:46] <gregoiregentil> you need to have a program or pay a fee for those states even if you ship/manufacture/whatever from another state
[13:46] <Drisanna> And what does Illinois call their fee?
[13:47] <gregoiregentil> I don't know by heart the legislation in each state. Specifically for Illinois, I need to find back the information in my mail archive
[13:48] <Drisanna> Please do.
[13:48] <Drisanna> I think you've been seriously mis-advised somewhere along the line.
[13:48] <torpor> i paid 100euro's taxes on the touchbook when it arrived.
[13:48] <torpor> it sucked
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[13:49] <Mrkva> torpor: 30% VAT?
[13:49] <torpor> not sure but it was a serious nuisance
[13:50] <Mrkva> I'll pay something like 70EUR
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[13:50] <torpor> i do not have my own VAT .. but for other similar products i have received it was not so high.
[13:50] <gregoiregentil> Mrkva: if you order for another country, you won't have to pay the California taxes
[13:51] <Mrkva> gregoiregentil: so the price 399USD is without taxes, I assume?
[13:51] <gregoiregentil> correct
[13:51] <torpor> i think you really have to take care that you don't over-generalize the taxes/duties thing, gregoire, just because you don't understand/don't agree/don't care about government imposed fees.
[13:51] <Aard> torpor: sure that's a nuisance, but one can calculate the worst case taxes before ordering (sometimes they let things through, etc)
[13:52] <Mrkva> gregoiregentil: well, that's great! thanks
[13:52] <torpor> fortunately i have a budget that allows this flexibility, but its a terrible pain in the ass to have it screwed up somewhere just because someone didn't do the paperwork properly. i will look at my customs notices about this at the end of the month and try to work out what went wrong.
[13:53] <torpor> i think i paid an extra eu127 on my touchbook when it arrived, and it had a customs form i've never seen before.
[13:53] <Mrkva> and now only pray that customs officers won't see my package :D
[13:53] <gregoiregentil> torpor: if you can suggest a better form on our side, I would have no problem to update ours
[13:53] <gregoiregentil> we are just putting a standard invoice here
[13:53] <torpor> i would like to do that
[13:53] <Aard> btw, in germany it's 19% vat (depending on the officer 19% on price + shipping)
[13:54] <torpor> its supposed to be the same in austria, but i think there are some loopholes
[13:54] <gregoiregentil> I'm not making any money at all (even on this eco-fee flame...). And if people can pay less taxes, I would be happy for them
[13:54] <torpor> you're not making any money at all?
[13:54] <Mrkva> torpor: the fact is (at least in our country) if the customs officers don't believe declared value they open the package and find a bill or ask a bill from you
[13:54] <gregoiregentil> On this tax stuff, no
[13:55] <torpor> you shouldn't be making money on taxes collected, LOL!
[13:55] <Mrkva> if you won't provide it, they'll guess the price
[13:55] <Aard> about 1 year ago the vat was always for price+shipping, they changed it for the officer to decide to calculate it with or without shipping costs
[13:55] <torpor> can we change the subject and discuss something else that is bothering me about the touchbook right now: Power Management. What is the current situation, gregoire? When can we expect proper management features, and if its not soon, whats the problem? How can it be fixed?
[13:56] <torpor> i cannot reliably use my touchbook with USB devices, because plugging one in will often result in a shutdown/reboot.
[13:56] <torpor> on battery that is - with power plugged in, this is not an issue.
[13:57] <torpor> i'm guessing it has something to do with battery loads and tolerance for the charging / rectifier?
[13:57] <gregoiregentil> torpor: I will write an update for the next release of the status for the power management.
[13:57] <torpor> its important i think, because there are real issues here that must be addressed.
[13:57] <gregoiregentil> next release is scheduled this month, probably within 10 days or so
[13:57] <torpor> okay
[13:57] <torpor> thank you for the honest response.
[13:58] <torpor> 'write an update' - means inform us about the situation, or fix some software that will improve the situation?
[13:58] <Mrkva> torpor: well, it shutdowns only in AIOS or even in bootloader?
[13:58] <torpor> even in bootloader.
[13:59] <torpor> it seems really related to power load conditions.
[13:59] <mongrelcat1> gregoiregentil: I haven't got the time to go into it right now, but if I RMA my touchbook can I get one with a 512 board? And if so will it cost more?
[13:59] * mongrelcat1 is now known as mongrelcat
[13:59] <torpor> running on battery - fully charged (since i am in the habit of only using my touchbook connected to power right now) - plug in a USB device, and "blimp!" the TB resets.
[14:00] <Aard> torpor: the `bootloader' part is already in the kernel, when the usb drivers get loaded. I guess a quick hack here would be a delay between enabling the usb ports (though I didn't check if the hardware allows it)
[14:00] <torpor> this is after having had the touchbook plugged in for days. of course i cannot tell the battery state as there is no reliable meter.
[14:00] <Mrkva> torpor: well, that looks like something underestimated
[14:00] <gregoiregentil> yes. we are not upgrading the memory for free. The initial (and unchanged) price was for 256MB. We had an opportunity to produce 512, so we produced 512 (and this lowers our margin even more...) We didn't change the pricing but we can't exchange for free
[14:00] <torpor> 'bootloader' part is in the kernel? the OS selection screen?
[14:00] <Aard> yes
[14:01] <azaghal> Hm... Is it possible to build-in more RAM by hand?
[14:01] <torpor> lowers the margin? i think Texas Instruments discontinued the 256meg part and are charging the same fee for 512megs!!
[14:01] <torpor> Aard, the bootloader is being run by the kernel? i find that hard to comprehend.
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[14:01] <azaghal> It's a sandwich, iirc.
[14:01] <Mrkva> torpor: it'd be nice if you'll be able to measure if there's voltage drop and where exactly it occurs
[14:01] <azaghal> So probably no, I guess :)
[14:02] <Mrkva> torpor: after the shutdown it boots with USB device connected successfuly?
[14:02] <Aard> torpor: the gui thing for distribution selection is -- strictly speaking -- not the bootloader
[14:02] <torpor> it occurs always when i am running on the battery (keyboard plugged in) and try to plug in a USB device.
[14:02] <torpor> Aard, thats what i thought
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[14:02] <torpor> Mrkva, yes.
[14:03] <Mrkva> torpor: than in a worst case scenario, soldering capacitor somewhere should be enough :)
[14:03] <torpor> Mrkva, great, i'll send my touchbook to you and you can fix it! :)
[14:03] <Mrkva> torpor: I really don't like to play with other's hardware
[14:04] <torpor> gregoiregentil, you should be aware that the TI ram upgrade has been announced by other vendors of OMAP-based devices as "coming for free from the factory"
[14:04] <Mrkva> because frequently it won't work anymore
[14:04] <Mrkva> :))))
[14:04] <torpor> Mrkva, i don't like to solder hardware i paid more than 200euro's for! :)
[14:04] <Mrkva> torpor: me too :)
[14:05] <torpor> gregoiregentil, i.e. that TI announced the upgrade to 512megs and that the price to OEM's is not going to change - i.e. they still pay the 256meg part price, but get 512megs, because the 256meg chips are no longer produced
[14:05] <gregoiregentil> torpor: the 512 is hardly in production... and I have HUGE problem to source this chip
[14:05] <gregoiregentil> the Micron and others have also huge stock of 256 and they are trying to sell it first
[14:05] <torpor> lots of fish in the little pond, eh ..
[14:16] <torpor> grr ... trying to play sound on AIOS, i get this message and very poor sound: ALSA lib pcm.c:7234:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occured
[14:16] <torpor> anyone know what thats about?
[14:18] <Mrkva> torpor: how frequently this message appears?
[14:18] <Mrkva> torpor: I get this error almost anytime I play xmoto on my regular laptop... so I don't think thats an issue
[14:18] <torpor> all the time.
[14:18] <Mrkva> define "poor sound" - shuttering?
[14:18] <torpor> every buffer right
[14:18] <torpor> write
[14:19] <torpor> yes, stuttering
[14:19] * mcr (~mcr@2001:4830:16ca:1:20d:60ff:fefa:7f03) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[14:19] <torpor> btw this is a very cute game to play on touchbook : http://www.pygame.org/project/406/
[14:21] <torpor> so yeah .. sound is currently borked. even mplayer is not behaving properly.
[14:21] <Mrkva> torpor: can you try running this command? speaker-test -f 500 -t sine
[14:22] <torpor> speaker-test: command not found
[14:22] <Mrkva> oops
[14:22] <Mrkva> :)
[14:24] <Mrkva> torpor: have you tried another player?
[14:24] <torpor> experimenting now
[14:24] <helpful> .
[14:24] <torpor> sh-3.2$ mplayer hotgossip_supernature.mp4
[14:24] <torpor> ^^ reports "your system is too slow to play this file"
[14:25] <torpor> so i do "mplayer -ao sdl hotgossip_supernature.mp4" and i get the underrun messages constantly
[14:25] <Mrkva> and bad sound?
[14:25] <torpor> file type is ffmpeg ffh264, audio codec mad AAC 115.8kbit/44100 khz
[14:25] <torpor> yup
[14:25] <torpor> bad sound
[14:26] <Mrkva> video is OK?
[14:26] <torpor> seems like it
[14:26] <torpor> is there some DSP bridge thing that still has to be done?
[14:27] <Mrkva> and I assume touchbook don't have pulseaudio or any other sound daemon?
[14:27] <Mrkva> torpor: can you post me a /etc/asound.conf file (if there is one)?
[14:28] <torpor> its empty
[14:28] <torpor> # default angstrom configuration
[14:32] <Mrkva> torpor: try mplayer -ao alsa:noblock:device=hw=0.0
[14:32] <Mrkva> (just guessing
[14:32] <azaghal> Is there dmix?
[14:33] <torpor> Mrkva, seems to produce slightly better results
[14:33] <torpor> no underruns being reported
[14:34] <torpor> doesn't help with my synth though! :)
[14:34] <Mrkva> torpor: what about ~/.asoundrc?
[14:34] <Mrkva> does this file exists?
[14:34] <Mrkva> azaghal: I don't think so because asound.conf is empty (and I don't think conf'll be in .asoundrc)
[14:34] <torpor> no such file
[14:35] <torpor> going to try this fix:
[14:35] <torpor> http://jira.atheme.org/browse/AUD-115
[14:36] <azaghal> dmix should be enabled by default on most distros nowadays, I think.
[14:37] <Mrkva> torpor: also, can you try /usr/share/alsa/alsa.conf ?
[14:37] <torpor> doesnt help
[14:37] <torpor> ah okay file is there Mrkva
[14:39] <Mrkva> azaghal: do you think about sampling frequency? :)
[14:39] <torpor> 44.1khz should work!
[14:40] <Mrkva> torpor: can you try grep dmix.rate /usr/share/alsa/alsa.conf ?
[14:40] <torpor> 48000!
[14:41] <Mrkva> okay, there can be an issue, if dmix is really enabled
[14:41] <Mrkva> can you try opening this file in text editor (under root account) and change it to 44100 ?
[14:41] <azaghal> Mrkva: Well, I know I used to have to setup asoundrc by hand two-three years ago in Gentoo, and at some point that became unnecessary.
[14:42] <torpor> so i changed it and same result
[14:42] <torpor> do i need to restart alsa?
[14:42] <Mrkva> torpor: I think terminating all programs using soundcard should be enough
[14:43] <torpor> just going to reboot to be sure
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[14:47] <torpor_> nope, same result
[14:48] <torpor_> i thought this was fixed already
[14:48] <Mrkva> torpor: okay, can you test it happens also with speakers?
[14:49] <torpor_> yeah
[14:49] <torpor_> it does
[14:49] <torpor_> i tried that
[14:49] <Mrkva> (i mean, external speakers/headphones)
[14:49] <torpor_> yeah
[14:49] <torpor_> it does
[14:49] <torpor_> makes no difference
[14:50] <torpor_> i just realized what the touchbook reminds me of: my old i-opener.. ;)
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[14:51] <Mrkva> torpor: and this problem is in any distribution?
[14:52] <torpor> i'll try the ubuntu distro ..
[14:52] <Mrkva> because I'm currently out of ideas.
[14:53] <torpor> yeah good of you to try though.
[14:53] <torpor> you don't have your touchbook yet i take it?
[14:53] <azaghal> Ubuntu uses Pulseaudio...
[14:53] * azaghal curses at Pulseaudio
[14:53] * torpor shudders
[14:54] <Mrkva> torpor: no
[14:54] <Mrkva> otherwise, I hope I'd be more helpfu
[14:54] <Mrkva> l
[14:54] <torpor> yup
[14:55] <azaghal> torpor: What were your symptoms again?
[14:55] <torpor> ALSA lib pcm.c:7234:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occured
[14:55] <torpor> constant messages
[14:56] <azaghal> Hrm...
[14:56] <torpor> but .. i've got about 5 minutes left until i have to hit the sack, so let me try ubuntu and see if thats better .. if it is, i'll just switch to ubuntu. ;)
[14:58] <azaghal> Well, ALSA can cope badly with cheap soundcards often :/
[14:58] <azaghal> I've had my share of issues before :)
[14:58] <Mrkva> me too.. but with last debian it works fine :)
[14:59] <Mrkva> so far :)
[14:59] <torpor> i had really thought this was solved in the last AIOS release .. geeze ..
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[15:02] <torpor> okay i'm tired, time for bed
[15:02] <torpor> nice chatting with you fine folks, catch you a bit later. .
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[15:02] <Mrkva> wow, its midnight
[15:05] <helpful> Only 11pm here, still time to party :-)
[15:07] <helpful> Damn, I'm still appearing as Freenode, thought I'd changed that :-(
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[15:48] <tommd> gregoriegentil: Would you accept a modification to /usr/bin/ai/gps/gps-start.sh that gave an additional option of downloading the recorded GPS tracks to a user-supplied filename?
[15:48] <tommd> I'd have it place the file in /home/ai/Maps/ as that is where Tangogps looks for tracks by default.
[15:48] <tommd> Eventually I need to do something about the lack of GPX parsing utilities.
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[16:27] <tommd> And where in the repo do the bin/ai file live?
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[17:19] <bstag> hmm charging again.. this is gonna be entertaining to track down
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These logs were automatically created by TouchBook-LogBot on irc.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.