#touchbook IRC Log


IRC Log for 2010-02-25

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[0:44] <mervaka> is WPA enterprise support compiled into the driver yet? the wiki seems a bit flakey in its descrription
[0:44] <mervaka> wifi driver*
[0:45] <Corsac> hmhm, something like WPA-EAP?
[0:45] <mervaka> PEAP, yeah
[0:45] <Corsac> anyway, WPA/WPA2 are supported afaik, EAP should be done at wpasupplicant level, doesn't it?
[0:45] <mervaka> but it just sits on the security phase, waiting
[0:46] <mervaka> would that be a lack of signal strength?
[0:46] <mervaka> i dont think its the latter case, becaues i get two to three bars at times
[0:47] <mervaka> unless send strength isnt up to it? :s
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[1:06] <Corsac> mervaka: if you can, try first wpa-psk, just in case
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[5:53] <FIN__Master> What is libsftp.so? Anyone?
[5:54] <DJWillis> at a guess, an SFTP lib, Secure 'ftp' like stuff over SSH. ;-)
[5:55] <_koen_> what does google have to say about it?
[5:56] * leinir (~leinir@amarok/usability/leinir) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[5:56] <FIN__Master> Thats what i guessed but some webcam-software complains that its missing. So maybe its used for streamin..
[5:56] <FIN__Master> and Google gives plenty of nothing
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[10:19] <Meizirkki> GOT IT!
[10:19] <Meizirkki> why sound never worked properly in my Ubuntu images
[10:19] <leinir> Ooh? :)
[10:20] <Meizirkki> AI postprocess does modify /etc/init.d/ai-daemon to create the device files
[10:21] <Meizirkki> i have searched through the file 10 times and finally noticed that line lol
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[10:21] <leinir> Nicely! :)
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[10:22] * Meizirkki is going to test Lucid today- just because there's chromium available (which failed to build for Karmic..)
[10:24] <leinir> Nifty :)
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[11:40] <mervaka> Corsac: it's definitely WPA enterprise with PEAP
[11:41] <mervaka> it's centrally managed.
[11:45] <Corsac> gbeh?
[11:51] <mervaka> the ralink wireless thing with WPA ent..
[11:52] <mervaka> http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/Wifi
[11:52] <mervaka> i dont know if that bug's still active or not
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[12:44] <Corsac> mervaka: I can do WPA on the touchbook, so the support is definitely enabled
[12:58] <mervaka> ok
[12:58] <mervaka> i can do WPA-PSK
[12:58] <mervaka> no problems
[12:58] <mervaka> at home
[12:59] <mervaka> its just at uni
[12:59] <mervaka> but i'm not sure whether its a range problem or a WPA enterprise problem
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[14:01] <phcoder> Hello, all. Does anybody knows a way to replace the firmware of unbootable touchbook? (I want to port grub as firmware for it)
[14:02] <mervaka> http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/Reinstall_OS
[14:02] <phcoder> mervaka: firmware, not OS
[14:03] <DJWillis> phcoder: you want to 'port' grub, you talk about firmware, hmmm, I assume ARM bootloaders are not something you have a great deal of exposure to? Why would you want to port grub?
[14:03] <Mrkva> phcoder: serial connection works?
[14:04] <phcoder> DJWillis: I already ported grub2 to Yeeloong as on-disk bootloader and I'm finishing to make a firmware out of it
[14:04] <DJWillis> phcoder: the TB is all booted from the SD card so a correctly setup SD card should get you going assuming there is not hardware issues.
[14:05] <phcoder> Mrkva: serial connection is for debugging, sure. But you need a way to change firmware even if firmware fails.
[14:05] <DJWillis> phcoder: the Yeeloong, that's one of the MIPS netbooks is it not?
[14:06] <phcoder> DJWillis: GRUB as firmware would bring coreboot-like experience. I find it's a good idea and want to contribute for TB.
[14:06] <phcoder> DJWillis: it is
[14:06] <DJWillis> phcoder: the OMAP3's have an on die bootloader that loads a small hashed bootloader (commonly X-Loader) that chains U-Boot that then chains the kernel.
[14:07] <DJWillis> You would need to keep X-Loader or devise your own really small microloader that then loaded grub in place of u-boot and grub would have to take care of system setup (or you use grub as a stage 3 loader after u-boot).
[14:08] <phcoder> how big is X-Loader? Where is it stored? Is it replacable? What's the hash for? Is U-Boot in 256 MiB NAND? Using GRUB2 as stage3 is a good idea for begining develeoppement but isn't goal in self.
[14:09] * mcr (~mcr@2001:4830:16ca:1:20d:60ff:fefa:7f03) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[14:10] <phcoder> grub2 as firmware would allow some things as booting of completely LUKS encrypted disk and/or non-standard filesystem. And my main motivation is to have fun ;)
[14:10] <DJWillis> phcoder: in the case of the TB the WHOLE thing is on the SD, NAND is unused (but can be used). Have a google for signgp.c to see how the hash is added to the stage 1 bootloader so the bootrom will load it. I can't recall the exact limit for x-loaders size off the top of my head but it's small.
[14:11] * snlemons (~snlemons@s9-438.unh.edu) has joined #touchbook
[14:11] <Mrkva> i was thinking about using nand as a quick-boot minimum environment (lightweight webbrowser and few other tools)
[14:12] <mervaka> wouldn't minimum be a terminal environment?
[14:12] <mervaka> and links as a browser? :P
[14:12] <Mrkva> mervaka: links is a great browser
[14:12] <Mrkva> elinks even can do javascript!
[14:13] <Mrkva> a sort of :)
[14:13] <DJWillis> Mrkva: we use it for everything on the OpenPandora (well it's one of the options), in our case that leaves you with 2 SD slots. It would be nice to use it in some way on the TB, even if it was for a persistant UBIFS volume over different OS/SD setups.
[14:13] <phcoder> "Xloader is a small first stage boot loader derived from the u-boot base code to be loaded into the internal static ram by the OMAP ROM code. Because the internal static ram is very small (64k), xloader is stripped down to the essentials and is used to initialize memory and enough of the peripheral devices to access and load the second stage loader (UBoot) into main memory."
[14:15] <phcoder> Well it should be enough for grub core with fs modules and rest can be loaded as modules
[14:15] <DJWillis> phcoder: sounds about right, less then 64k actually with overhead. There are several other options but Bootrom>X-loader>U-Boot>Kernel is by far the most common.
[14:15] <Mrkva> DJWillis: i guess full scale webbrowser (firefox?), LXDE and few other tools would be able to fit onto this 256MB NAND
[14:15] <DJWillis> phcoder: so where are you going to do system bringup, mux stuff etc.? You have no EFI/BIOS type thing doing that before GRUB on ARM.
[14:16] <Mrkva> if it'll use some sort of compression
[14:16] <phcoder> DJWillis: I know. I would init the bare minimum in core and rest just before loading linux
[14:16] * richardrebel (~richardre@static-64-115-193-170.isp.broadviewnet.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[14:16] <DJWillis> Mrkva: UBI/UBIFS/SquashFS and some AUFS messing about can do some nice stuff (if I ever get it to work as I want).
[14:17] <Mrkva> well, if I ever receive my touchbook, I'll try :)
[14:17] <DJWillis> phcoder: sounds like a plan, good luck doing it, I don't think anyone is going to object to OMAP family support in GRUB ;-)
[14:17] <phcoder> on yeeloong the bare minimum init was about 2.5KiB uncompressed, not size-optimized
[14:17] <DJWillis> Mrkva: still need to find the cash to order one.
[14:18] <phcoder> DJWillis: thanks. Do you happen to know the type of this chip 64k chip? (socket, voltages and so on)
[14:18] <DJWillis> phcoder: I would think less 'in code terms' to get the OMAP into a semi workign state.
[14:19] <DJWillis> phcoder: no, it's not a 64k chip, that is what the bootrom will load into RAM and jump to from the boot medium (USB/NAND/SD).
[14:20] <DJWillis> It would just be 64k from the begining of the NAND or be a correctly named file (MLO) in the 1st records of a bootable SD's FAT tables.
[14:20] <Mrkva> I'll really need to study ARM booting process
[14:21] <phcoder> I was confused by "static ram" expression. So I guess bootrom is pretty advanced if it can read disks
[14:21] <Mrkva> because it's so different from x86)
[14:21] <phcoder> s,disks,SD
[14:22] <DJWillis> Mrkva: there are so many diffs from ARM SoC to ARM SoC. Most work the same way these days with semi-clever on-die bootroms that can read large/small page NAND, SD's, fixed mem locations etc. and deal with basic (and not so basic) sig/hash checks before running code.
[14:22] <phcoder> Mrkva: actually it doesn't seem so. Basically the booting process is "hardware launches firmware and then you can code firmware to do whatever you want"
[14:23] <DJWillis> Mrkva: the big change is that the stage 0 code is often all on the die of the SoC.
[14:25] <Mrkva> DJWillis: sorry, what exactly means die of the SoC? i know this only as "dead man"...
[14:25] <phcoder> DJWillis: on coreboot you can put the whole bootloader in flashrom
[14:25] <phcoder> Mrkva: System-ON-Chip
[14:26] <Mrkva> i know what soc is
[14:26] <Mrkva> i'm not sure about the word "die"
[14:26] <Mrkva> you mean immutable hardwired?
[14:27] <Mrkva> *immutably
[14:27] <DJWillis> on the print of the chip
[14:28] <Mrkva> so I can't possibly totaly brick it :) that's great :)
[14:29] <phcoder> Well TB isn't SoC: at least RAM is a separate package
[14:29] <DJWillis> Mrkva: yep, the bootrom is hardwired onto the OMAP3530 so assuming your hardware is good you can't brick it and won't need crap like JTAG to bring it back to life ;-)
[14:30] <DJWillis> phcoder: no, the OMAP3530 is the SoC with RAM and NAND POP'ed on top of the SoC
[14:31] <Mrkva> DJWillis: I still remember the necessity of making testpoints if you bricked cell phone during bootloader flash
[14:31] <Mrkva> that was usually great fun :)
[14:31] <phcoder> well it's not one chip anymore. And hardwired bootrom is unfortunate
[14:32] <DJWillis> phcoder: the OMAP3530 is an SoC, I don't see why that seems to be up for debate, the hardwired bootrom is hardly an issue really.
[14:32] <phcoder> What are these "security services" and "high security" stuff SPRUFD6 speaks about?
[14:33] <phcoder> DJWillis: well the term "SoC" has got quite vague these days
[14:34] <phcoder> DJWillis: you're not free to mess with this code. And yet TB claims to be fully FOSS
[14:35] <DJWillis> phcoder: oh for pitys sake, it's baked into the damm chip, if you want to mess at that level get very friendly with FPGA setups ;-)
[14:35] <DJWillis> phcoder: that will be the ARM TrustZone stuff at a guess (without checking the PDF)
[14:36] <Mrkva> "TB is fully FOSS. I want this transistor to be elsewhere"
[14:36] <Mrkva> :)
[14:36] <DJWillis> phcoder: as for SoC, well I guess you could call it vague so lets say nothing more about it ;-)
[14:37] <DJWillis> TB also has closed drivers for the SGX (open kernel side, closed userspace) as do all OMAP3's that feature the SGX core.
[14:37] <Mrkva> and also closed-source wifi firmware
[14:38] <DJWillis> Mrkva: firmware yes, driver software, no - Ok, that's true of most WiFi setups however (not all but most).
[14:39] <Mrkva> DJWillis: well, there can also by a closed-source regulatory daemon (as for the old intel wifi drivers)
[14:39] <phcoder> TrustZone sounds pretty much like hardware part of Palladium
[14:40] <DJWillis> Mrkva: but I am pretty sure this chip supports the open but signed reg-domain stuff that is in the kernel tree these days (don't quote me, I don't tend to use ralink cards).
[14:41] <Mrkva> DJWillis: i'm not sure also :)
[14:41] <Mrkva> http://www.arm.com/products/processors/technologies/trustzone.php
[14:42] <DJWillis> phcoder: maybe but it has much less use in anger then the stuff Intel and MS are pushing. TrustZone is there but outside of high secure use of embedded I have not seen it used.
[14:43] <Mrkva> Palladium=trusted computing, right?
[14:44] <phcoder> http://www.arm.com/products/processors/technologies/trustzone.php says "Digital Right Management, Software license management, Loyalty-based applications, Access control of cloud-based documents". Pretty much Palladium
[14:44] <DJWillis> Mrkva: I understand it was the codename for the MS software side but yep, it's all part of that setup.
[14:44] <phcoder> Mrkva: treacherous computing
[14:46] <Mrkva> actually, it's not a bad thing
[14:47] <Mrkva> bud can be misused (DRM)
[14:48] <phcoder> Mrkva: it's not like if malicious use is there by coincidence. The usecases like "to secure access to keyboard" hardware-wise are already handled by MMU.
[14:50] <phcoder> and http://www.arm.com/products/processors/technologies/trustzone.php mentions itself the malicious cases as target
[14:52] <Mrkva> phcoder: on the other hand, there is no need to use it
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[14:53] <Mrkva> at least i hope so
[14:54] <phcoder> Mrkva: unfortunately you're not the one who decides if it's used on your machine or not
[14:55] <Mrkva> phcoder: why not?
[14:57] <Mrkva> it depends on the operating system (whether it use it or not) - or am I wrong?
[14:57] <phcoder> Mrkva: you can read sprufd6. There it is said that it's hardwired into device (HS vs GP). HS device won't allow unsigned OS to boot
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[15:06] <Mrkva> ok
[15:06] <Mrkva> here it comes a little bit scary
[15:09] <Mrkva> still, I don't think (or at least I hope it's not enabled on touchbook)
[15:13] <phcoder> if you can run any mlo file then according to how I understand the documents it isn't. Actually something like this isn't astonishing in ARM (think Apple)
[15:14] <Mrkva> well, it'd be great if you'll be able to lock the hardware to your custom kernel
[15:14] <mervaka> has anyone install an RS232 dsub on their tb yet? i'm trying to figure the best place to mount one.
[15:15] <Mrkva> mervaka: I'm going the moment I receive mine :D
[15:15] <mervaka> :P
[15:15] <mervaka> i fancy using it for coding at uni
[15:16] <Mrkva> and R-SMA for the wifi antenna
[15:16] <mervaka> yeah, about that..
[15:16] <mervaka> how are you going to connect that
[15:16] <Mrkva> I just hope the wifi dongle is somehow hackable
[15:16] <Mrkva> if not, i have one (but 2.4G only) with external connector
[15:17] <phcoder> I would install the harddisk in bottom part of it
[15:17] <mervaka> hackable?
[15:17] <mervaka> source code is available
[15:17] <mervaka> dunno about schematics
[15:17] <mervaka> phcoder: hard disk? :S
[15:17] <mervaka> just a whopping great battery underneath
[15:18] <Mrkva> phcoder: you'll have to make a step-up converter 5->12V
[15:18] <Mrkva> but that's not impossible
[15:18] <Mrkva> unfortunately, you'll have to connect it using USB only
[15:18] <mervaka> :s
[15:18] <mervaka> good way to kill battery life
[15:19] <Mrkva> or use one of the 2.5" ones
[15:19] <phcoder> mervaka: USB 2.5" one. There are USB signals for keyboard in bottom part. It would need to install USB hub, move the battery and put HD instead of counterweights
[15:19] <Mrkva> :)
[15:19] <mervaka> ah
[15:19] <phcoder> mervaka: a switch to turn it on only when needed
[15:19] <mervaka> usb header would be nice on the bottom board
[15:19] <Mrkva> phcoder: this is usually automatic
[15:20] <phcoder> the system and mostly used docs will be on SD of course
[15:21] <mervaka> in fact
[15:22] <mervaka> i might just solder a pin header into the serial and carry a lead separate
[15:22] <mervaka> though i have fuck all clearance for that.. hmm
[15:22] <Mrkva> mervaka: that'll look ugly
[15:23] <Mrkva> but you don't need to lead out the big Canon9 connector for taking only 4 pins out :)
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[15:23] <mervaka> LOL
[15:23] <mervaka> just dropped one in to test
[15:23] <Mrkva> mervaka: maybe 2x2pin headers
[15:23] <mervaka> definitely DOESNT fit
[15:23] <mervaka> not even a 90 degree one
[15:24] <Mrkva> mervaka: or you could use RJ-11 connector :)
[15:24] <Mrkva> thats a smaller one
[15:24] <Mrkva> :D
[15:25] <mervaka> same header as the 90 degree fan headers in a pc
[15:25] <phcoder> Mrkva: Yost RJ-45 serial may be an idea
[15:26] <phcoder> mervaka: if pin header doesn't fit probably the pins are metric and not inch-based. I had the same problem on Yeeloong. I had no metric pin header under the hand so I just tightly pressed an inch one to move its pins slightly
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[15:27] <Mrkva> mervaka: maybe this thing: http://www.ges.cz/wsl-06g-ges06614852.html
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[15:38] <Mrkva> going to bed. good night everyone
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[15:38] <mervaka> the pitch is right
[15:39] <mervaka> i just cant get the back cover on :P
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