#touchbook IRC Log


IRC Log for 2009-12-22

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[8:17] <G7KES> Morning all
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[10:28] <G7KES> So, are we all hoping for an update today?
[10:36] <tommd> Every day
[10:37] <G7KES> LOL
[10:39] <G7KES> well, snowman said last night that there was an update due today...
[10:41] <tommd> but snowman isn't involved in AI development
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[10:56] <Corsac> grannounced a 2009.12a release for was upcoming
[10:56] <Corsac> but no delay
[10:56] <Corsac> hmhm
[10:56] <Corsac> I meant gregoire
[11:09] <tommd> ahh
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[12:51] <tommd> Survey time everyone: How do you want the auto-rotate to work? I have two thoughts:
[12:51] <tommd> 1) If you hold it at an extreme angle (vertically) then it will switch the screen to what-ever is right-side-up instantly. Holding it at less extreme angles will give a delay before it switches. Holding it below, say, 30 degrees and it won't switch. iow, there is a heuristic so it will 'stick' on whatever mode you are currently on when placed on a flat or slightly slanted surface.
[12:51] <tommd> 2) If you hold it at some large angle (say, 45 degrees) then it switches immediately. Holding it at any less of an angle and it won't switch.
[12:51] <tommd> I originally thought the first would be good, but a delayed switch might annoy people.
[12:51] <tommd> So an immediate switch would make the cause/effect more obvious to users.
[12:52] <tommd> I'll implement the second one this afternoon unless I'm convinced otherwise.
[12:53] <azaghal> tommd: Make it configurable?
[12:55] <tommd> azaghal: I doubt more than two people would change the configuration, and that's just more bloat... but I guess I could.
[12:57] <azaghal> Well, how much bloat really is it?
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[12:57] <azaghal> For example, option to specify the angle might be usable by more people than you think.
[12:57] <azaghal> And that delay thing might be useful if you, for example, roll over in bed.
[12:57] <tommd> azaghal: It isn't the angle I'm talking about
[12:58] <tommd> azaghal: Its two separate algorithms
[12:58] <tommd> azaghal: Not that its much bloat, just unnecessary
[12:58] <tommd> azaghal: One algorithm tracks a history of pitch/rolls and based on how long its been at an angle and the extremeness of the angle, it might rotate.
[12:59] <tommd> azaghal: The other will always switch immediately once its hit the specified angle.
[12:59] <tommd> If feel that first, more complex, algorithm would just tick people off (even though I initially thought it a good idea).
[12:59] <tommd> People like computers to react fast and have obvious cause-effect.
[13:00] <azaghal> Well, I always prefer configurable stuff myself - it's easier to customise the behaviour of a program that way than digging into the source code :)
[13:00] <azaghal> Will you implement some kind of "lock" option as well?
[13:00] <tommd> ai_daemon already has a 'don't auto-rotate' mode.
[13:01] <tommd> If you want something like a socket, allowing a tray icon to lock the current rotation then that is certainly doable.
[13:01] <tommd> In other words: Dynamically turn on and off auto-rotate without restarting ai_daemon.
[13:05] <azaghal> Heheh, using that history stuff you could detect if someone's starting to sleep while holding the TouchBook and alert him :)
[13:05] <azaghal> Btw, how has everyone been satisfied with robustness of device so far? Especially taking it along on field trips etc.
[13:06] <tommd> My main objection is the back cover is fairly thin
[13:06] <tommd> I'd like to see some thicker/stronger casing on it.
[13:06] <azaghal> Compared to some other more common netbooks?
[13:06] <tommd> I've not yet gotten a sleeve for it and as such haven't taken it many places.
[13:07] <tommd> azaghal: Yes, compared to other netbooks I'd say the plastic is thin/weak feeling.
[13:07] <tommd> Post-Christmas I'll grab a sleeve and USB GPS then take it in my bike-bag everywhere.
[13:08] <tommd> That way I can track how much ground I cover.
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[13:44] <Sn0wman> gregoiregentil: didn't you say that you were gonna release a new version today?
[13:52] <azaghal> How much the battery holds with current implementation of kernel modules/related userspace stuff?
[13:53] <Sn0wman> how long does it last?
[13:54] <azaghal> Yep
[13:54] <Sn0wman> I got 3.5 hours on the tablet after a full charge
[13:54] <azaghal> Hm... Nowhere near 10 hours so far.
[13:55] <Sn0wman> and I think that the bottom half has a battery double the size of the tablet
[13:55] <azaghal> Is the problem mostly in kernel or userspace?
[13:55] <azaghal> Ah
[13:55] <azaghal> Just the tablet?
[13:55] <Sn0wman> so 3.5 hours from the tablet + 6-7 hours (maybe) from the bottom half
[13:55] <azaghal> That sounds pretty decent then.
[13:55] <azaghal> Is it with all goodies turned on?
[13:56] <tommd> Sn0wman: He's going through bugzilla right now
[13:56] <tommd> just closed one of my tickets.
[13:56] <Sn0wman> I did it playing video constantly for 3.5 hours
[13:56] <Sn0wman> ah
[13:56] <Sn0wman> alrighty thanks tommd
[13:57] <Sn0wman> azaghal: yah it says on the battery wiki page that the tablet has 6Ah battery and the bottom half has 12Ah so I would expect double the life
[13:57] <Sn0wman> http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/Charging_batteries
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[15:25] <tommd> How do I submit patches? Bugzilla?
[15:25] * tommd will be back, but is going away for 15-20 minutes
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[16:42] <tommd> Alright, I just finished my rotation patch. Perhaps it will be in 12a release, but I would be surprised.
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[17:16] <tommd> gregoiregentil: I just submitted a patch for bug 63. Let me know if you had a different idea for the design.
[17:16] <gregoiregentil> Yup. I saw it
[17:16] <gregoiregentil> I'm a little bit confused. Is it for the rotation
[17:16] <gregoiregentil> touchscreen or for the rotation as swallow angle?
[17:18] <tommd> oops
[17:18] <tommd> gregoiregentil: I ment to submit it for bug 44!
[17:18] <tommd> I'll fix
[17:23] <tommd> gregoiregentil: Submitted for bug 44 but I don't know how to remove the patch from bug 63. Unless you know a way I'll just add a comment explaining my messup.
[17:24] <gregoiregentil> yes, add a comment. I don't think that you can remove a previous comment or file
[17:29] <tommd> Ahh, and fixed the patch on 44 to include the header file. I'll become a smooth patch submitter some day.
[17:30] <gregoiregentil> I'm pushing 2009-12.a now so it won't be inside. but I will take a look for next release
[17:30] <tommd> Great!
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[17:45] <tommd> Sn0wman: PING! Figured since you were asking you'd be interested in what gregoire said above ^^^
[17:46] <tommd> G7KES: I guess it was actually you who mentioned it earlier - 12.a is being pushed right now (see above), yay.
[17:53] <tommd> azaghal: If you are interested in the rotation fix there is a patch on bug 44 now.
[17:59] <martinh> i wonder if mine will upgrade without problems. we'll see tomorrow.
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[18:03] <tommd> Could someone explain bitbake files and how I specify a dependency? I can't seem to get the ai-daemon.bb to depend on glib (which it does, its some wonder that it compiles when building ai-image - doesn't compile when building ai-daemon)
[18:03] * tommd runs to the store
[18:03] <gregoiregentil> DEPENDS="..."
[18:04] <tommd> humm, that isn't even in its current bitbake file.
[18:04] <gregoiregentil> Sure that it's not a problem of Makefile?
[18:04] <tommd> OK, I'll come back to this.
[18:05] <tommd> the makefile works on the TB... but the glib-2.0 directory doesn't even exist (the -dev package wasn't unpacked?) in my /OE/ directory on my x86
[18:05] <tommd> so I figured it was a dep issue.
[18:06] <gregoiregentil> in cross-compiling, it doesn't work like that
[18:06] <tommd> anyway - need to go buy food so I don't turn into a starving hacker.
[18:06] <gregoiregentil> you have a staging folder where all the headers are put for cross-compiling the next package
[18:06] <tommd> gregoiregentil: But I see the -I flag to gcc
[18:06] <tommd> yes, and that staging folder is lacking include/glib-2.0/glib.h
[18:07] <gregoiregentil> ls /OE/build/tmp/staging/armv7a-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/usr/include/glib-2.0/
[18:08] <tommd> gregoiregentil: No, that glib-2.0 directory does not exist.
[18:08] <tommd> I haven't build ai-image on this git pull - just individual apps
[18:08] <tommd> I figured the individual app should specify a glib dep and thus cause glib to be unpacked?
[18:08] <gregoiregentil> so perhaps the dependency is missing indeed and glib is built by other packages
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[18:09] <tommd> right - so I'll just add the dep here...
[18:09] <gregoiregentil> yup
[18:10] <tommd> great, its running... and now so must I.
[19:06] <Sn0wman> gregoiregentil: I just deleted everything off of my 3rd partition and now I'm getting that old problem with the flash. It only shows a white square where the video whould be
[19:06] <gregoiregentil> wait for the next release. I will upload to website within one hour (though upload will take some time)
[19:07] <Sn0wman> alright, but do you have any ideas in the mean time?
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[23:02] <Sn0wman> NEW UPDATE!! http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/release/
[23:03] <Sn0wman> http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/release/2009-12.a/
[23:13] <Corsac> !!
[23:13] <Sn0wman> gregoiregentil: do I need to unsquash the squashed fs before I put it on the second partition?
[23:14] <Corsac> Sn0wman: not yet ready
[23:14] <Corsac> he's currently uploading
[23:14] <Sn0wman> I know but he has the sqashfs which is all I need
[23:14] <Sn0wman> squashfs*
[23:14] <Corsac> not yet complete
[23:14] <Corsac> so don't download it yet
[23:14] <Sn0wman> hehe already did
[23:14] <Corsac> size is changing
[23:15] <Sn0wman> oh
[23:15] <Sn0wman> hehe
[23:15] <Sn0wman> good point
[23:15] <Sn0wman> do you know if I need to unsquash it first?
[23:16] <dpb> no
[23:16] <Sn0wman> no I shouldn't or no you don't know?
[23:16] <dpb> it wouldn't have a filesystem them
[23:16] <dpb> then*
[23:17] <dpb> how do you access files without a filesystem? the squash filesystem is its filesystem. you can't "unsquash" is
[23:17] <dpb> it*
[23:17] <dpb> why am I typoing so much..
[23:18] <Sn0wman> why can't I unsqash it? and there is a tool to "unsquash" it so why would you put it in quotes?
[23:20] <Corsac> Sn0wman: use install-sd.sh
[23:20] <dpb> Sn0wman: that probably just moves the files to the filesystem you're on
[23:21] <dpb> you can
[23:21] <dpb> you can't move the files to a raw partition
[23:21] <Sn0wman> wait squashfs is a filesystem type?
[23:21] <Sn0wman> :-?
[23:21] <Sn0wman> then why don't they have things like blahblah.ext3 or something?
[23:23] <dpb> because they use squashfs.
[23:23] <dpb> not ext3.
[23:24] <dpb> that's what the fs stands for, filesystem.
[23:24] <Corsac> wow, the image is huge
[23:25] <Corsac> I know there's ooo coming, but still
[23:25] <Sn0wman> no I mean why are squashfs filesystems downloadable whereas you can't download a .ext3 filesystem like blahblah.ext3 and then put that on your hard drive
[23:25] <Corsac> 2009.11a squashfs is 326M, we're already at 470
[23:25] <Corsac> Sn0wman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squashfs
[23:26] <dpb> Sn0wman: you can
[23:26] <Sn0wman> ?
[23:27] <dpb> Sn0wman: there are plenty of ext3 images for other stuff on the web, that you just dd to a partition
[23:27] <Sn0wman> ah
[23:27] <Sn0wman> do you dd squashfs's too?
[23:27] <dpb> yes
[23:28] <Sn0wman> so if it is compressed, then is there a time/size tradeoff since the computer has to unpack the OS at every boot?
[23:29] <dpb> yes, there is.
[23:30] <Sn0wman> as opposed to making an ext3 partition and throwing all of the files in the squashfs which would be much larger but boot faster?
[23:30] <dpb> though I think it just unpacks on access only, so it unpacks only stuff that you use
[23:31] <dpb> probably wouldn't make it boot that much faster
[23:31] <Corsac> and reading on flash is fast
[23:31] <Sn0wman> so like uboot would request some things in the boot directory?
[23:31] <Sn0wman> flash isn't that fast tbh
[23:31] <Sn0wman> ~20MB/s
[23:31] <Sn0wman> at its fastest
[23:31] <Sn0wman> but SSD's are crazy fast
[23:32] <Sn0wman> well then wouldn't ext3 be a better choice for all of this?
[23:33] <Sn0wman> much faster if my thoughts are correct
[23:34] <Sn0wman> JEEZE this squashfs is gettin huge
[23:36] <Corsac> definitely
[23:36] <Sn0wman> so after I download the squashfs, do I just dd it onto my 2nd partition?
[23:38] <Corsac> Sn0wman: no, use install-sd.sh
[23:38] <Corsac> (backup stuff before, but that's the correct way to go if you don't know much about everything there)
[23:42] <Sn0wman> why couldn't I dd it?
[23:45] <Corsac> hmhm, there's an android squashfs too :)
[23:45] <Sn0wman> hehe just noticed that :-)
[23:52] <dpb> Sn0wman: http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/Reinstall_OS#Linux
[23:54] <Sn0wman> no no, its ok. I just re-read that and saw the bottom where it talks about advanced users

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