#touchbook IRC Log


IRC Log for 2009-10-24

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[0:29] * Meiz_TB (n=Meizirkk@bbwirelessgw2-feeedc00-64.dhcp.inet.fi) has joined #touchbook
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[2:45] <Meizirkki> What's the device of the accelerometer? ((dev/someting?)
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[4:44] * MacAnkka (n=MacAnkka@a88-115-101-31.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Quit ("leaving")
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[8:21] * Q_Continuum (n=Q_Contin@75-168-104-185.mpls.qwest.net) Quit ("Ex-Chat")
[8:37] <viridior> g/l, morning all
[8:39] <viridior> ive finally got a new toolchain working, gcc-4.4.2 binutils-2.20 glibc-2.10.1, making a new image from those
[8:39] * diroots (n=diroots@ Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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[8:39] <viridior> should have neuvoo-0.2.0-minimal out this afternoon
[8:40] <viridior> yep
[8:40] <viridior> all compiled for armv7a
[8:40] <viridior> ok
[8:40] <viridior> ill be using the aios kernel, the generic/omap kernels are hit/misses
[8:41] <viridior> i have a BB and TB on my desk, so ill get it to work with those today
[8:41] <viridior> i like OE, but i prefer Gentoo's package QA better
[8:42] <viridior> deal ;)
[8:44] <ryuo> is this correct? you have to build a special kernel for each differing ARM processor?
[8:45] <viridior> ryuo: not necessarily
[8:46] <viridior> theoretically you could build a common omap3 kernel that supports the beagleboard, touch book, pandora, devkit 8000, evm, etc
[8:46] <ryuo> hm
[8:46] <ryuo> well i noticed theres no "one kernel fits all" like x86.
[8:47] <viridior> the problem is that omap3 support is still very fluid and each company/group has taken a kernel and built custom work-around/fixes in order to get their device to work and either haven't fed the fixes back up or it in the processes
[8:48] <viridior> s/it/its
[8:48] <ryuo> would be nice if you only needed one kernel for all the differences in ARM.. lol
[8:48] <viridior> i can build a generic omap3530 kernel now, but audio and video probably wouldn't work ;)
[8:48] * azaghal_ (n=azaghal@ has joined #touchbook
[8:48] <viridior> ARM is very decentralized unlike x86
[8:49] <ryuo> I see.
[8:49] <viridior> ARMv7 is a bit different from ARMv6, ARMv5, ARMv4, etc
[8:49] <ryuo> I was wanting to create an ARM branch for my distro.
[8:49] <viridior> even different ARMv4 and ARMv5 sub archs are quite different
[8:50] <viridior> the reason is groups/companies try to maximize performance and reduce power requirements as much as possible for their intended use, hence such the disparady
[8:50] <ryuo> I know, but when you let consumers install stuff, then it gets hairy.
[8:51] <viridior> ryou: ARMv5TEL? is generally speaking the lowest denominator for many "ARM"-based distros
[8:51] <viridior> Macer: don't use apt ;)
[8:51] <ryuo> for user space compiled programs?
[8:52] <viridior> ryuo: i would check debian and see what their default CFLAGS are, that will probably get you the widest audience for ARM devices
[8:52] <ryuo> viridior: and gentoo perhaps.
[8:53] <ryuo> viridior: thanks. I'm a developer for frugalware, you see.
[8:54] <ryuo> viridior: can you explain how ARM boots differently from x86?
[8:54] <ryuo> i was told it doesnt use a BIOS at all
[8:54] <ryuo> does it use any kind of ROM for booting?
[8:54] <ryuo> firmware?
[8:55] <ryuo> i'm used to BIOS and MBR booting.
[8:55] <viridior> ryuo: most people use X-Loader and U-boot, http://www.denx.de/wiki/U-Boot
[8:55] <ryuo> Hm.
[8:55] <viridior> thats what is used on the beagleboard, pandora, touchbook
[8:55] <ryuo> Like grub?
[8:55] <viridior> more like grub++ ;)
[8:55] <viridior> not as easy to use, but much more powerful
[8:56] * azaghal (n=azaghal@ Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
[8:56] <ryuo> like going from python to C? lol
[8:56] * azaghal_ is now known as azaghal
[8:56] <viridior> you can enable networking so you can load your root filesystem over a network vice just from a local device
[8:56] <ryuo> that might be preferred.
[8:56] <viridior> many other features
[8:57] <ryuo> to speed up compilation for ARM
[8:57] <viridior> im using cross compilers for the most part until i get to something that either is too time intensive to fix or just flat-out doesn't work, then i natively compile that package
[8:57] <ryuo> AI released the first ARM machine like an x86 computer i've ever seen in the US.
[8:58] <ryuo> is glibc too fat for ARM? lol
[8:58] <ryuo> debian uses it on armel so hm
[8:59] <ryuo> Macer: did you try oldbar addon?
[8:59] <ryuo> It makes "awesomebar" a bit more tolerable.
[8:59] <ryuo> i'm considering switching to seamonkey once its 2.x reaches "stable" status
[9:00] <viridior> ryuo: im using glibc for neuvoo-0.2.0, haven't had problems
[9:00] <ryuo> i think one of the main uses of linux is in embedded
[9:00] <ryuo> and servers
[9:01] * shiznebit (n=shiznebi@ool-18b99096.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #touchbook
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[9:02] <ryuo> eh.. I still prefer ext 2/3 because of its "old reliable" ;p
[9:02] <shiznebit> Macer, may up the DD to your server ?
[9:03] <ryuo> Macer: man dd
[9:03] <ryuo> ?
[9:03] <ryuo> is that what you mean't?
[9:04] <shiznebit> i meant the SD image that i made using dd
[9:04] <shiznebit> host it ?
[9:04] <shiznebit> 1.1GB
[9:05] <shiznebit> my computer ?
[9:05] <ryuo> does AI provide you with the default root password when you get your TB?
[9:05] <shiznebit> alright ill set up an ftp
[9:05] <viridior> ryuo: they allow root via sudo... 'sudo -s'
[9:06] <ryuo> i know what sudo is :P
[9:06] <ryuo> so they are like ubuntu.
[9:06] <shiznebit> nah
[9:06] <ryuo> no direct su?
[9:06] <ryuo> on ubuntu they lock root by default
[9:06] <viridior> ryuo: no need to get snippy, if you want the root passwd then change it afterwards
[9:06] <ryuo> :p
[9:07] <ryuo> i'm not o_o
[9:07] <viridior> ill assume you know how to change your passwd ;)
[9:07] <ryuo> I was just asking how it worked
[9:07] <viridior> 'sudo -s' was my answer
[9:07] <ryuo> by default
[9:07] <ryuo> <_<
[9:07] <viridior> ive never seen the default passwd on the board/forums
[9:08] <ryuo> sudo usermod -U root
[9:08] <ryuo> heh
[9:08] <ryuo> so TB has no hardware clock too? heh
[9:09] <ryuo> lame. =p but that may just be an ARM thing.
[9:10] <ryuo> Macer: epoch fail!
[9:10] * Macer goes to get his hippie clothes
[9:10] <ryuo> =p
[9:10] <ryuo> <_<
[9:11] <ryuo> viridior: sorry if I was snippy.
[9:11] <viridior> ryuo: no issues
[9:11] <ryuo> I just don't usually use preinstalled linux.
[9:12] <ryuo> I usually install it myself
[9:12] <ryuo> Macer: what kernel did you use?
[9:12] <ryuo> haha
[9:12] <viridior> ryuo: ive been building Gentoo from the ground up for ARMv7a, i have been working on this for just over a year now so i may have some experiences to help you out if your thinking of doing the same. I don't use OE/bitbake.
[9:14] <ryuo> the decentralized nature of ARM makes it a poor choice for windows =p
[9:14] <ryuo> Macer: might be in the AI kernel patches
[9:16] <ryuo> FAT - More food.. -eats-
[9:16] <ryuo> lol
[9:16] <ryuo> hm
[9:16] <ryuo> did you check in /proc and /sys?
[9:16] <ryuo> linux stores info like temperature under there somewhere
[9:18] * viridior wrestled with python-2.6.3 and loss. *sad*
[9:18] <viridior> looks like im using 2.6.2 until somebody patches :/
[9:24] <ryuo> RIP: firefox
[9:25] <ryuo> heh. I use Free Pascal myself.
[9:31] <shiznebit> viridior, so how well does the gentoo build support all the hardware ?
[9:37] * Managu_TB (i=62cc389e@gateway/web/freenode/x-nbgzsgmfznyanuvy) has joined #touchbook
[9:39] <viridior> shiznebit: it should be the same as AIOS since i will be using their kernel. I haven't set in stone what follow-on software i will be including, ill leave it open in here and on the forums for suggestions
[9:39] <viridior> ive been working on my own kernel that im trying to make universal for omap3530 devices, but it doesn't support all the hardware that AIOS does atm, so ill have AIOS kernel for now
[9:40] <shiznebit> i see
[9:40] <viridior> once i can get a good omap3530 base, ill break out. What devices were you looking to support?
[9:49] <shiznebit> i was just wondering if the Gentoo build would support all the AIOS hardware, thats all really
[9:51] * shiznebit (n=shiznebi@ool-18b99096.dyn.optonline.net) Quit ("Leaving")
[9:54] <ryuo> viridior: dontcha love it when it when people do this?
[9:54] <ryuo> "haiz i needz help"
[9:54] <viridior> haha
[9:54] <ryuo> -1 minute later they are gone-
[9:54] <viridior> yeah, he left before i got a chance to respond
[9:55] <viridior> im floating around in 10 irc channels and 6 consoles :/
[9:55] <viridior> takes me a minute to get back and forth
[9:55] <ryuo> viridior: you must be in good shape to walk so much :P
[9:55] <viridior> shiznebit is good people, he has been around a bit... ill answer his question when i get back
[9:55] <viridior> ryuo: all remote logins ;)
[9:56] <viridior> im building neuvoo-0.2.0-minimal right now on my home server, takes a bit of mentoring and shaping to keep it going
[9:56] <ryuo> could i use my x86 X11 clients on my ARM if it was the server? hm lol
[9:56] <viridior> so far so good though
[9:56] <viridior> ryuo: should be ok if your doing ssh forwarding
[9:57] <viridior> talking about doing vnc-type work?
[9:57] <ryuo> i guess but only LAN
[9:57] <viridior> yep, i wouldn't touch it otherwise
[9:57] <ryuo> i dont trust external networks
[9:58] <ryuo> to that extent
[9:58] <viridior> debating about getting a Palm Pre or waiting for a n900. Unfortunately im a Verizon customer atm under contract
[9:58] <ryuo> before i left windows I became savy and noticed a trend in how the malware makers operate
[9:58] <ryuo> it greatly helped me to avoid infection
[9:59] <viridior> speaking of which, i think its been 6months since my last Windows install... about time to wipe and reinstall :/
[9:59] <ryuo> they often lurk on "underground" sites.
[10:00] <ryuo> also, most of the people who get infected are sad to say
[10:00] <ryuo> technically illiterate..
[10:00] <ryuo> -sigh-
[10:00] <ryuo> i wish they would learn
[10:00] <ryuo> it gets old cleaning up after them
[10:00] <ryuo> its like being the janitor and someone purposely keeps making messes
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[10:06] * ryuo (n=ryuo@frugalware/developer/ryuo) Quit ("Lost terminal")
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[11:17] * spvensko (n=spvensko@ Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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[11:31] * neebly (n=neebly@a80-101-220-148.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit ()
[11:32] * Derken (n=derken@a80-101-220-148.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #Touchbook
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[11:37] <Corsac> hey alexandre
[11:38] <alexandre> hey
[11:38] * jofjdi (n=jsherman@user-10lfcke.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #touchbook
[11:39] <Corsac> now have two more silicon power 8GB sd cards
[11:39] <Corsac> hope they'll boot
[11:42] * Meiz_TB (n=Meizirkk@bbwirelessgw2-feeedc00-64.dhcp.inet.fi) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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[11:50] <Derken> Silicon power?
[11:50] <Derken> is that a brand?
[11:53] <Corsac> seems to
[11:53] <Corsac> the same one as the one provided with the touchbook btw
[11:53] * Corsac ipkg upgrades
[11:57] <Derken> i c, didn't know. my touchbook is still at the Dutch customes...
[12:00] <Corsac> funny, the conffiles handling is the same as debian's
[12:20] <Meizirkki> Derken, O_o how long it has been there?
[12:20] <Meizirkki> s/it has/has it/
[12:20] <Derken> 10 days today
[12:20] <Meizirkki> whoa
[12:21] <Meizirkki> time to call them? :P
[12:21] <Derken> yep printed out the contact info today and going to call them first thing on monday
[12:22] <Derken> and try not to loose my temper...
[12:26] * Managu_TB (i=62cc389e@gateway/web/freenode/x-qsbhpcacqubcpvcs) Quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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[12:29] * Meizirkki (n=Meizirkk@bbwirelessgw2-feeedc00-64.dhcp.inet.fi) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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[12:51] * robclark (n=robclark@nat/ti/x-vbupgkinvznemxhe) has joined #touchbook
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[13:28] * GUido- (n=rossw3@c-76-105-100-86.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) Quit ("To alcohol, the cause of AND solution to... ALL of life's problems")
[13:32] <shiznebit> oO
[13:41] <viridior> just finished with cross compiling, now im just need to configure it and boot. If all goes well ill have a 0.2.0-minimal out in an hour or two
[13:42] <viridior> as soon as i have a pre-release tested and verified boot, ill start on 0.2.0-desktop
[13:43] * Q_Continuum (n=Q_Contin@75-168-53-124.mpls.qwest.net) has joined #touchbook
[13:48] * viridior tarballing
[13:50] <viridior> neuvoo-0.2.0-minimal is 261MB unpacked (not including kernel & modules)
[13:50] <viridior> and 4MB swapfile
[13:55] * shiznebit (n=shiznebi@m435736d0.tmodns.net) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
[13:59] <Corsac> koen: mhmh, SRC_URI in a .bb is overrided by the one in a class?
[14:04] <Corsac> on TBuntu you mean?
[14:05] <viridior> Macer: give me a little more time ;)
[14:08] <Corsac> because you have OGL support in your n810?
[14:08] <viridior> sgx support is almost non-existant atm
[14:10] <Corsac> I don't really think OE is ???crappy??? btw
[14:10] <Corsac> nor the modification AI made
[14:11] <Corsac> and it seems TBuntu doesn't really performs better
[14:11] <Corsac> oh, sure
[14:11] <Corsac> tbh, I think it's more because I'm an Xfce user
[14:11] <Corsac> some stuff I don't really like on the AIOS (especially the fact that it's 4.4)
[14:12] <Corsac> you still didn't say what where the missing features, btw
[14:12] <Corsac> (I'm the only one user of my TB)
[14:12] <Corsac> erf, video and sound don't work
[14:12] <Corsac> ?
[14:12] <Corsac> so what, exactly, is better?
[14:13] <Corsac> ok, so you prefer gnome to xfce?
[14:13] <Corsac> (you do know about ipkg?)
[14:14] <Corsac> ok, thanks for clarification
[14:15] <ryuo> well, its still "beta" software.
[14:15] <Corsac> ts mouse?
[14:15] <ryuo> touchscreen
[14:15] <ryuo> i'm guessing
[14:16] <Corsac> yeah but I still don't see the point :)
[14:16] <ryuo> its not technically a mouse but i know what your saying
[14:16] <ryuo> my x86 laptop touchscreen has never worked right lol
[14:16] <ryuo> i gave up trying to get it to work
[14:17] <ryuo> and? theres other good players like ones based on xine
[14:17] <ryuo> =p
[14:17] * viridior boots neuvoo-0.2.0_pre1-minimal on his TB
[14:18] <viridior> Macer: you can't expect Ubuntu to work right out of the box for embedded systems
[14:19] <Corsac> because PM is not yet available?
[14:19] <Corsac> s/\ right.*//
[14:19] <Corsac> Macer: because that's the case when PM is available?
[14:19] <Corsac> come on???
[14:19] <Corsac> which it doesn't use, btw :)
[14:20] <ryuo> i'm intending to make an ARM port using the AI TB device once it arrives
[14:20] <Corsac> I'm not exactly sure you can compare Nokia and AI, btw :)
[14:20] <Corsac> but again, you were told it's a beta OS
[14:20] <Corsac> that some stuff weren't working
[14:20] <Corsac> for example PM
[14:20] <ryuo> yea. nokia has the money of M$ like.
[14:21] <ryuo> AI is just a small business.
[14:21] <ryuo> No, I'm saying cut them some slack.
[14:21] <ryuo> I'm not expecting everything to work just right.
[14:21] <ryuo> Nothings perfect..
[14:22] <ryuo> ARM isn't a performance machine.
[14:22] <Corsac> ok, I'm done
[14:22] <Corsac> I just can't anymore
[14:22] <ryuo> Corsac: pointless argument? I agree.
[14:23] <Corsac> Macer: there is a wiki, a forum and bugzilla
[14:24] <ryuo> Put it on the proper channel please, I don't really want to hear about it here.
[14:24] <Corsac> where all the issues are reported (or should be)
[14:24] <Corsac> it's ok to talk about that here, sure, but again, again, and again
[14:24] <Corsac> you're just noisy now
[14:24] <ryuo> I'm just a frugalware developer waiting for their order to be processed.
[14:25] <Corsac> Macer: I don't really think the problem will magically solve by you complaining here
[14:25] <ryuo> Macer: #frugalware
[14:27] <ryuo> right now i'm writing a frontend to our package manager in pascal.
[14:27] <ryuo> Yea.
[14:27] <ryuo> free pascal more precisely
[14:28] <ryuo> it has many extensions to old procedural pascal
[14:28] <ryuo> like an object layer
[14:28] <ryuo> asm isn't portable though.
[14:29] <ryuo> I'd say hardcore.
[14:29] <ryuo> The closest to the metal I'll go is C.
[14:30] <ryuo> assembly used to be a major language.
[14:30] <ryuo> before better ones were invented
[14:30] <ryuo> now we got more languages than grains of sand :P
[14:31] <ryuo> Pascal is my new preferred lower level language.
[14:32] <ryuo> Its syntax and keywords make a lot more sense than C.
[14:32] <ryuo> I finally got sick of C to be honest..
[14:33] <ryuo> Pascal is like
[14:33] <ryuo> For I := 0 To 3 Do
[14:33] <ryuo> C is like
[14:33] <ryuo> for( i = 0 ; i < 3 ; ++i )
[14:34] <ryuo> pascal feels like i'm reading a sentence.
[14:34] <ryuo> lol. i guess
[14:34] <ryuo> no clue why
[14:35] <ryuo> that may be why
[14:35] <ryuo> I know C, but mainly because I have to.
[14:35] <ryuo> Pascal is just my style to be honest.
[14:36] <ryuo> anyway
[14:36] <ryuo> It has a lot in common with C++, so when I have to learn that, it'll make it easier.
[14:37] <Corsac> Macer: not mad, sad
[14:37] <ryuo> hm
[14:38] <ryuo> ? <-- wow xterm acts wierd
[14:38] <viridior> huzzah! neuvoo-0.2.0_pre1-minimal boots and gives a command prompt
[14:39] <Corsac> ok, now how to make an ipkg mirror
[14:39] <ryuo> viridior: how does ARM vary from x86, in regards to the hardware differences?
[14:39] <viridior> ryuo: can't think of many more ways to be different :)
[14:39] <ryuo> so far, it seems they can use many of the same I/O hardware
[14:40] <ryuo> ethernet, USB
[14:40] <ryuo> etc
[14:40] <viridior> i2c, sdio, etc are fairly universal, but cpu arch is very different
[14:40] <ryuo> so how does ARM boot exactly?
[14:40] <viridior> ryuo: those are all standards, not PC dependant
[14:40] <ryuo> is the boot device embedded ROM?
[14:41] <ryuo> does it have a lil menu I can access like BIOS?
[14:41] <viridior> ryuo: nope, omap3530 has a NAND built in, you can put your bootloader of choice in there
[14:41] <ryuo> Oh.
[14:41] <ryuo> it boots by using the builtin flash?
[14:41] <viridior> ryuo: nope, X-Loader and U-boot are the most often used
[14:41] <viridior> ryuo: yes, but you can change it
[14:41] <ryuo> hm
[14:42] <ryuo> does it use MBR
[14:42] <ryuo> ?
[14:42] <ryuo> i doubt it
[14:42] <ryuo> i'm used to GRUB and LILO lol
[14:42] <viridior> those are all PC/Bios terms, but yes there are similar comparisons
[14:42] <ryuo> interesting.
[14:42] <ryuo> how does debian run on TB?
[14:43] <ryuo> which kernel.. lol
[14:43] <Corsac> didn't tried yet
[14:43] <viridior> for u-boot i use this... http://neuvoo.org/wiki/index.php?title=U_Boot
[14:43] <viridior> the bootcmd is similar to what you would expect GRUB to do
[14:43] <ryuo> if I mess up the bootloader, am I bricked?
[14:43] <viridior> no
[14:43] <ryuo> so how do i rescue if my bootloader on the flash is borked?
[14:44] <viridior> well, at least not normally... unfortunately the TB doesn't have a serial port already... but you could soder a serial connection if you need to
[14:44] <ryuo> I get the impression the flash is probably best used to store kernel images in /boot
[14:44] <viridior> ryuo: im using the default xloader and uboot, they are fine
[14:44] <ryuo> looks like my distro wont need to include a bootloader then
[14:44] <viridior> ryuo: the TB's NAND only stores xloader and u-boot. kernel and rootfs is stored on SD
[14:45] <ryuo> ah.
[14:45] <viridior> ryuo: nope, you just need the kernel and rootfs in the right spots
[14:45] <ryuo> so how do i rescue if i mess up a bootloader overwrite?
[14:45] <ryuo> on x86 I can use BIOS to boot off another device
[14:45] <viridior> ryuo: there are 3 soder points you can connect a serial cable to if you need to. I would recommend just leaving it alone
[14:45] <ryuo> k
[14:46] <viridior> also, you can assess NAND via userspace to update it if you need to
[14:46] * Macer (i=macer@lasziv.reprehensible.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[14:46] <ryuo> is there a serial port accessible from the case?
[14:46] <ryuo> or do i have to open it
[14:46] <viridior> /dev/mmcblk0p1, FAT32 partition, uImage is where the kernel needs to be
[14:46] <viridior> /dev/mmcblk0p2, ext2/3, is where rootfs is required
[14:47] <ryuo> I'm guessing ext2 is preferred on flash
[14:47] <ryuo> because of the write limit
[14:47] <viridior> ryuo: no attached serial port, you have to soder one
[14:47] <ryuo> Oh.
[14:47] <ryuo> I guess I should treat the bootloader like my BIOS
[14:47] <ryuo> something I shouldn't tamper with
[14:47] <viridior> thats why i say just leave it alone for now, because you can update NAND via linux userspace tools, but if you mess it up you wont be able to fix without serial port
[14:48] <viridior> which has to be sodered in
[14:48] <ryuo> problematic i know
[14:48] <ryuo> I'll just use what they got.
[14:49] <ryuo> I'd expect my x86 window managers to work on ARM x11 too
[14:49] <viridior> i have a beagleboard which i use also for dev work. ive updated xloader and uboot on that a few times, but ive also had it break and had to have my serial connection to unbrick
[14:49] <viridior> ryuo: WMs shouldn't be an issue. ive already compiled openbox, fluxbox, and most of e17
[14:49] <ryuo> oh. =p
[14:50] <ryuo> I've tried hybrid tilers
[14:50] <ryuo> they aren't too bad
[14:50] <ryuo> some are just ugh
[14:50] <ryuo> WMFS is one of the better ones
[14:50] <ryuo> a lot of tilers use the old font system
[14:51] <ryuo> i placed my order yesterday
[14:52] <ryuo> I'm just researching ARM while I wait
[14:52] <ryuo> this is will be my first working with a non-x86 architecture so intimately
[14:52] <Managu_tb> Anyone familiar with OE/Angstrom? I'm playing around with an Angstrom image, and trying to figure out how to get 'xtscal' to run. The program's there, but when run, it reports 'XCALIBRATE extension missing: Success'. Thing is, for everything I can tell, the recipe building the X-server has '--enable-xcalibrate' set
[14:53] <ryuo> my only ARM device is probably my nintendo DS right now
[14:53] <ryuo> Managu_tb: sorry, no.
[14:53] <Corsac> koen: is there a way to only generate packages for what I want (like, if I bitbake xfce packages, I'd only want ipkg for xfce stuff, not all the dependencies)
[14:53] <viridior> ryuo: frugalware doesn't seem to be too far different than Gentoo which is what im working with. I'll be more the happy to let you know how to get around the roadblocks ive ran into
[14:54] <ryuo> viridior: You can help too if you want ;P
[14:54] <ryuo> our package manager is forked from Arch's
[14:54] <viridior> ryuo: i think i have my hands full enough with Neuvoo ;)
[14:54] <ryuo> the main problem will be build hosts.
[14:54] <viridior> im military and have a 9 month daughter when im not doing this
[14:54] <ryuo> we need a way to keep packages for ARM up to date
[14:55] <ryuo> military? ack! don't shoot! :P
[14:55] <viridior> i can remember the last time i shot a gun
[14:55] <viridior> err... can't
[14:55] * tommd (n=Thomas_D@65-102-40-206.ptld.qwest.net) has joined #touchbook
[14:56] <viridior> i would probably hurt myself much less anyone else
[14:56] <ryuo> sawfish is pretty interesting.
[14:56] <ryuo> it uses a dialect of lisp
[14:57] * viridior starts working on documentation for neuvoo-0.2.0-minimal and starts generating neuvoo-0.2.0-desktop
[14:57] <ryuo> (print "fear the ()'s!")
[14:57] <ryuo> lol
[14:57] <ryuo> the first kernel on my distro will be one I can use..
[14:57] * MMlosh (n=MMlosh@2001:470:1f0b:b78:a1e7:67f0:ed3:89e0) Quit ("Bye...")
[14:58] <ryuo> I've configured kernels before but I like to use stock kernels instead of
[14:58] <ryuo> specialized.
[14:58] <ryuo> usually you dont gain much for your trouble
[14:59] <viridior> ryuo: you need to separate from x86 mentality. For the most part, especially ARMv7a the non-standard kernels are the ones that work
[14:59] * Guest21801 (n=chatzill@ppp-70-247-163-135.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #touchbook
[14:59] <ryuo> so we may have to let people make their own kernel instead of providing a stock?
[15:00] <viridior> vanilla-kernel will probably boot, but video/audio likely wont work
[15:00] <ryuo> hm
[15:00] <ryuo> I noticed. :o
[15:00] <viridior> omap1-kernel works slightly better, but still probably wont have audio/video
[15:00] <viridior> OE/Angstrom kernel works great, but heavily patched
[15:01] <viridior> OE/AIOS same
[15:01] <ryuo> is there a generic ARM platform for kernels?
[15:01] <viridior> no
[15:01] <ryuo> one that supports all variants
[15:01] <ryuo> k
[15:01] <ryuo> I thought so
[15:01] <ryuo> debian wouldn't have so many kernels if they could
[15:01] <viridior> part of the reason is that many of the devices that use ARM have NDAs for their attachments
[15:02] <ryuo> aka non-opensource components?
[15:02] <viridior> for many devices there are a few
[15:02] <viridior> yes, non-open
[15:02] <ryuo> TB have any?
[15:02] <ryuo> It doesn't appear so.
[15:02] <Corsac> ok, apt-ftparchives won't work for opkg :)
[15:02] <Corsac> ryuo: the DSP
[15:02] <viridior> don't remember off the top of my head, but i believe they intentially tried not to use closed hardware
[15:03] <viridior> DSP, true
[15:03] <ryuo> at least userspace apps can be compiled like x86
[15:03] <ryuo> DSP? the sound system?
[15:03] <viridior> its not necessarily just for sound
[15:03] <viridior> ive seen patches for mplayer for better video playback
[15:04] <ryuo> those kernel patches no good against 2.6.31 kernels?
[15:04] <ryuo> the ones AI provides
[15:05] <ryuo> viridior: i think what we'll have to do is provide a bootable kernel and then give them a way to make their own custom kernels to get the whole thing working
[15:06] <ryuo> i assume the linux ARM sound drivers work with ALSA?
[15:10] <viridior> ryuo: omap3530 alsa SoC drivers are problematic
[15:10] <rrebel_> FYI if I may chime in, there seems to be a lot of OMAP changes that are headed or already into 2.6.32. If you have time, check out the linux-arm discussion groups and look at putting TB patches toward their fork (as it's most likely to be merged)
[15:10] <viridior> ryuo: i already plan on making a universal kernel for OMAP3530 devices, just haven't got that far yet
[15:11] <viridior> rrebel_: good point
[15:11] <viridior> and for just about any arguement omap3430==omap3530
[15:12] * viridior uploads neuvoo-0.2.0_pre1-minimal
[15:12] <rrebel_> viridior: I haven't had the time nor patience to try it yet, but I have been following the group and the patches. The TB patches are kind of minimal IMHO, although many are rather rough.
[15:13] <rrebel_> I am also interested in seeing a moblin based distro for the TB that uses the side-of-screen tb button to bring up the menu. It already had good OSK support and I know it's been ported to arm. Another project I haven't had time to focus on.
[15:13] <viridior> rrebel_: IMHO i would try and follow the OE/Angstrom kernel tree. They tend to have the most motion for omap3. The Pandora devs are also doing a lot of work on custom kernels, haven't seen their work yet.
[15:14] <rrebel_> viridior: The OE/Anstrom kernel is way out of date... IMHO
[15:14] <viridior> are you looking at the .bb patches?
[15:14] <rrebel_> And the distribution isn't what I would call good.
[15:15] <viridior> not just the git
[15:15] <rrebel_> No, just the git and the lists.
[15:15] <viridior> most of their patches are in the recipe
[15:15] <viridior> which is a pain if your not using OE :/
[15:15] <rrebel_> Wait, yeah, I have seen all the *.bb but they are for kernels that are old.
[15:16] <viridior> we have an automated ebuild to pull in their kernel are recipe
[15:16] <viridior> that might be true, haven't looked at it in a while
[15:16] * fooq (n=reini@ Quit ()
[15:16] <viridior> for what im doing atm i can use a vanilla kernel
[15:16] <viridior> but ill be looking at it hard soon
[15:16] <rrebel_> Also, suspend resume support and other things are in the newer linux-arm tree and are making into the 2.6.32 release.
[15:17] <viridior> that would be nice
[15:17] <viridior> one of my to-dos
[15:17] <rrebel_> One of the biggest drawbacks of the TB is no suspend to ram. And it's making it into mainline 2.6.32 it seems.
[15:17] * viridior is compiling for xorg-server
[15:17] <viridior> rrebel_: im flexible enough to use much newer kernels
[15:17] <rrebel_> viridior: shtylman has done this, with libts as well to reduce jitter and increase accuracy. He has packages about.
[15:18] <viridior> rrebel_: what git tree is he using?
[15:18] <ryuo> viridior: git out! :P
[15:18] <rrebel_> viridior: Don't know, but he has instructions on the wiki to install his packages.
[15:18] <viridior> ryuo: ;)
[15:19] <rrebel_> viridior: His git name is similar to his IRC handle. /msg him and ask about it.
[15:19] <ryuo> viridior: so can i find a web interface to browse the packages availabe in AI ipkg?
[15:19] <viridior> ryuo: 1 sec
[15:19] <ryuo> how large is ipkg?
[15:19] <ryuo> our package manager is about 3.2 MB for the regular frontend, library..
[15:20] <viridior> ryuo: http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/List_packages_2009-09.b
[15:20] <ryuo> excluding dependency libraries
[15:20] <viridior> 2009-09.c is current, but they dont have the pkg list on the wiki
[15:20] <rrebel_> viridior: that's old, *.c is current.
[15:20] <rrebel_> ooops, you typed faster than I did.
[15:20] <viridior> also, from Angstrom: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/
[15:20] <rrebel_> I built a bb setup just to get open-ssh server.
[15:20] <rrebel_>
[15:21] <rrebel_>
[15:21] <viridior> ryuo: ^^^ that will give you and idea of what you can install, but it may break things in AIOS
[15:21] <viridior> s/and/an
[15:21] <ryuo> does AI include header files by default?
[15:21] <rrebel_> BTW, I have been absent a few days. Has anyone dealt with the inablity to bring up OSK from the IA button while detached from KB?
[15:21] <ryuo> debian loves to split those into -dev packages
[15:22] <ryuo> oh yea. is OMAP little or big endian? it seems to be little
[15:23] <rrebel_> BI
[15:23] <ryuo> does u-boot let you choose before booting?
[15:23] <rrebel_> But looking for OMAP imp
[15:23] <ryuo> lol
[15:23] <Corsac> rrebel_: opkg install openssh would be enough
[15:25] <rrebel_> Corsac: Oh please dont' tell me that. I build the package and all dependencies, including X and every other damned library! I was looking forward to my efforts tomorrow when I set up my own local repository.
[15:25] <rrebel_> Corsac: has my work been in vain?
[15:25] <rrebel_> Corsac: I looked in the ipkg list and it didnt' list openssh anywhere. Just dropbear.
[15:27] <ryuo> viridior: when i used to use C, I made a function and macro expansion that allocated memory for a pointer this way:
[15:27] <ryuo> #define alloc(V)
[15:28] <ryuo> _alloc( (void **) &(V), sizeof( *(V) ) * N )
[15:28] <ryuo> or rather
[15:28] <ryuo> #define alloc(V,N)
[15:29] <ryuo> prototype was void _alloc (void **,size_t)
[15:29] * rrebel_ Corsac is suspiciously quiet.
[15:29] <Corsac> I was preparing hot dogs
[15:29] <Corsac> but openssh is available in OE afaik
[15:29] <Corsac> it'll conflict avec dropbear which is already installed though
[15:29] <rrebel_> Corsac: Oh it is, just not in the TB repository. Must be bitbaked and installed.
[15:30] <ryuo> i thought it was a bit clever
[15:30] <Corsac> there's no TB repository
[15:30] <Corsac> but OE repositories are availabke by default
[15:30] <rrebel_> Corsac: Well, I mean the default repository on shipped TB's. It does not report openssh server as available.
[15:30] <Corsac> try opkg install openssh
[15:31] <Corsac> (this is even available in the wiki, afair)
[15:32] <viridior> im trying to decide on the WM to go with Neuvoo. I'm looking heavily at e17 or Mer, any ideas?
[15:32] <ryuo> viridior: does directFB work well with ARM too?
[15:32] <viridior> ryuo: i haven't tested yet :/
[15:33] <Corsac> there's a wm called mer?
[15:33] <ryuo> mer?
[15:33] <Corsac> or you mean the wm used in mer distribution?
[15:33] <viridior> not really a WM by itself
[15:33] <viridior> Corsac: yes
[15:33] <ryuo> viridior: could give LXDE a look?
[15:33] <viridior> interace i guess would be more appropriate
[15:33] <ryuo> or maybe even ROX?
[15:33] <viridior> LXDE should be trivial, don't know about ROX
[15:34] * viridior looks
[15:34] <ryuo> ROX was a pain. I managed to port it.
[15:34] <Corsac> rox is a file manager
[15:34] <Corsac> it was, at least
[15:34] <ryuo> its also a desktop environment if you used its auxiliary apps
[15:34] <ryuo> use*
[15:35] <ryuo> funny if you use it on ARM, since it was inspired by RISC OS, an ARM only OS
[15:36] <ryuo> my distro currently has 3 working branches, i686, x86_64 and ppc
[15:36] <viridior> ryuo: yes ROX is supported
[15:36] <viridior> should be trivial
[15:36] <viridior> ill let you know when i have LXDE and ROX binaries
[15:36] <ryuo> look at my packages in frugalware-current if you want an idea
[15:36] <viridior> im at 50/155 packages to get xorg-server up ;)
[15:37] <viridior> ROX is already in the Gentoo system, just needs to be compiled
[15:37] <rrebel_> Corsac: No, just sftp-server an nxssh (not sure that that is)
[15:37] <ryuo> http://git.frugalware.org/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=frugalware-current.git;a=tree;f=source/rox-extra;h=b4a30e29945e741854a15883c03dc10adec7ee31;hb=HEAD
[15:37] <rrebel_> I want to be able to ssh into the machine. Not just sftp/outgoing
[15:37] <ryuo> ^ we have a special package group just for rox :P
[15:38] <viridior> ryuo: http://roscidus.com/desktop/OroboROX
[15:39] * Q_Continuum (n=Q_Contin@75-168-53-124.mpls.qwest.net) Quit ("Ex-Chat")
[15:39] * Q_Continuum (n=Q_Contin@75-168-53-124.mpls.qwest.net) has joined #touchbook
[15:39] <ryuo> i've considered removing oroborox because its somewhat buggy
[15:40] <viridior> once i get xorg-server working with omapfb ill be trying a lot of WMs out
[15:41] <Corsac> rrebel_: I don't know about you, but here I definitely have openssh available
[15:41] <ryuo> I know some good ones.
[15:41] <ryuo> viridior: what are you looking for?
[15:41] <Corsac> try running opkg update maybe?
[15:41] <ryuo> pekwm is a good one, very flexible and lighter on resources than heavy weights.
[15:41] <ryuo> C++ window manage
[15:41] <rrebel_> Corsac: Okay, I'll try that. There is no openssh right now though. opkg list |grep ssh produces nxssh and the openssh-sftp stuff
[15:41] <ryuo> manager
[15:41] <viridior> ryuo: im just trying to decide what the default WM will be for neuvoo-0.2.0-desktop
[15:42] <ryuo> ah.
[15:42] <Managu_tb> viridior: I'm sure many will hate it, but I really like the idea of matchbox on the touchbook.
[15:42] <viridior> and afterwards what the default apps will be
[15:42] <ryuo> I've designed themes for pekwm before.
[15:42] <viridior> Managu_tb: i will definately have matchbox compiled at least
[15:42] <ryuo> you'll probably want a non-tiler then.
[15:42] <viridior> this will be mostly moot since if you dont like your WM you can change it out in two command line executions
[15:43] <rrebel_> Corsac: that was it, there are several ssh packages showing up with opkg list |grep ssh . I am trying an install now.
[15:43] <rrebel_> Corsac: What's interesting is I updated when I first got my TB. I wonder what's happened since then.
[15:43] <ryuo> viridior: whats your personal favorite?
[15:43] <ryuo> I'm trying out WMFS now.
[15:44] <viridior> i use gnome for my workstation, but ive used fluxbox for years
[15:44] <viridior> sort of why i don't have one settled already
[15:44] <viridior> before fluxbox i used e16 a lot
[15:45] <Corsac> rrebel_: OE repository update I guess
[15:45] <viridior> Afterstep and wmaker on occasion
[15:45] <Corsac> rrebel_: I think when I first updated zsh wasn't available, and now it is
[15:46] <ryuo> zsh? not bad. i still prefer bash
[15:46] <Corsac> if zsh is available, I think bash will be :)
[15:47] <ryuo> yea..
[15:47] <rrebel_> Corsac: well, I did a opkg -force-depends remove dropbear and then a opkg install openssh It's running now.
[15:47] <Corsac> \o/
[15:47] <ryuo> still need some kind of compatible shell for /bin/sh
[15:47] <Corsac> you may even be able to use opkg install openssh dropbear-
[15:47] <Corsac> rrebel_: bash and zsh are supposed to behave well as /bin/sh
[15:47] <ryuo> interesting.
[15:48] <ryuo> pacman is like
[15:48] <ryuo> pacman -Sy to sync databases
[15:48] <ryuo> pacman -S to install from remote DB
[15:48] <ryuo> pacman -Qs to search local
[15:48] <ryuo> etc
[15:48] <rrebel_> Corsac: Hah. You wish. It doesn't. bourne shell has it's quirks and people have coded to them.
[15:49] <Corsac> when I say /bin/sh I'm saying the posix sh
[15:49] <ryuo> pacman is entirely custom used mainly by arch and frugalware
[15:49] <Corsac> which is often bash, but not everywhere now
[15:49] <ryuo> Corsac: because of GPLv3?
[15:49] <Corsac> ?
[15:49] <Corsac> not sure ubuntu and debian are the only one to have switched to dash as /bin/sh
[15:50] <ryuo> I see people claiming GPLv3 is worse than v2, but I don't know why exactly.
[15:50] <ryuo> I don't favor any particular license, I feel they each have a suitable use..
[15:51] <ryuo> anyway
[15:53] * viridior 76/155 packages, time to get more beer
[15:54] <ryuo> viridior: for me thats more coffee ;)
[15:56] <rrebel_> For me that's another martini. I have guests. They are playing with the Wii while I cross compile and puree the corn soup. MUAHAHAHAHAH
[15:57] <ryuo> I just prefer to be sober..
[15:59] <rrebel_> Recipe for a "Dirty Black Martini": 3 oz good Vodka ice in a shaker. Fresh dry vermouth swirled around the glass. Pour chilled vodka, and one or two black olives and a bit of black olive juice. Fantastic.
[15:59] <viridior> hmmm.... Wii, i might call it a night early for some Wii
[15:59] <rrebel_> ryuo: Me too when I am seriously working.
[16:00] <ryuo> so where you guys hail from? I mean country
[16:00] <Corsac> if I wasn't alone at home I'd go for some macallan :)
[16:00] <rrebel_> viridior: I won't be chatting long. They are now switching to bowling and I am "required" to play.
[16:00] <rrebel_> ryuo: USA.
[16:00] <rrebel_> '
[16:00] <ryuo> same.
[16:00] <ryuo> funny, i'm the only FW developer from north america :P
[16:00] <ryuo> FW is a hungarian distro.
[16:01] <ryuo> is AI in CA?
[16:01] <ryuo> cause they charged me "ewaste" but I don't even live in CA lol
[16:01] <rrebel_> ryuo: Yes.
[16:02] <ryuo> ah.
[16:02] <ryuo> i hate more taxes... don't we already pay through the nose?
[16:02] <ryuo> whatever lol
[16:02] <rrebel_> Corsac: What's wrong with drinking Malt Scotch alone?
[16:03] <rrebel_> Corsac: Except if it's in dixie cups at your cubicle. That's just sad. Besides, it eats away the wax lining and makes a mess of your desk.
[16:04] * rrebel_ is Scottish and Italian.
[16:06] <ryuo> rrebel_: I think my bloodline is German and Dutch, all I know is its from Europe for sure.
[16:07] * Derken (n=derken@a80-101-220-148.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[16:08] <ryuo> rrebel_: so what languages you work with?
[16:08] <rrebel_> Well, just to spam the channel as it's Caturday: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4069286&l=58d2df1d9f&id=578103288
[16:09] <Corsac> rrebel_: well, I usually don't drink alone :)
[16:09] * Derken (n=derken@ has joined #touchbook
[16:10] <rrebel_> ryuo: C/C++ Objective C, Perl (I can do anything with perl, including threading in Apache with MPM worker), PHP (I despise), Ruby (nice idea but overhyped), and several other languages.
[16:11] <rrebel_> Corsac: well, I ain't alone tonight but I would have a nice malt if I were sitting home alone. Oh well, alcoholism is a sport or a disease, depending on how you play it. :}
[16:12] <rrebel_> ryuo: My favorite remains Perl. You may call me a Druid if you like. I can do so many kinky thinks in that language it might make you a little scared, or at least creeped out.
[16:13] <Corsac> you seem to have problems with your keyboard
[16:13] <rrebel_> ryuo: I do java, but I absolutely hate it.
[16:13] <Corsac> there are plenty of weird characters added to your text
[16:13] <Corsac> like P in reverse video
[16:14] <rrebel_> Corsac: Huh? I am not using my TB right now (btw TERRIBLE kb for right hand space bar users). You should see a simple URL.
[16:15] <rrebel_> Corsac: P in reverse video? Is that like "A urinal is like yellow cesspool until someone sucks all the yellow out into their penis and walks away"????
[16:16] <Corsac> http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-315.php
[16:18] <Corsac> =
[16:18] <Corsac> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
[16:18] <Corsac> mpf
[16:21] <rrebel_> Corsac: http://pastie.org/668455
[16:22] <rrebel_> shit. That wasn't user friendly.
[16:22] <Corsac> rrebel_: I had no problem with the url
[16:22] <Corsac> I was just saying you outputed some weird characters
[16:23] <rrebel_> Oh, irssi and termcap have some oddities. You can exploit them for fun and profit, but that wasn't my intention.
[16:25] <rrebel_> Corsac: So I have shared with you a Caturday photo. My kittens are carefree, obviously. So are my dogs. But he looks fit the the George Foreman doesn't he? *grin*
[16:30] * Mace_ is now known as `Mace
[16:31] <Corsac> hmmh, I need to get rid of busybox, too
[16:39] * viridior 100/155... more beer
[16:40] * Corsac is off to bed
[16:45] <Managu_tb> so, anyone had any luck with omapfb?
[16:45] <viridior> mixed
[16:46] <Managu_tb> heh, good luck, I meant =p.
[16:49] * edt (n=Ed@dsl-62-144.aei.ca) Quit ("Leaving")
[16:55] <viridior> Managu_tb: i released neuvoo-0.2.0_pre1-minimal earlier, working on the -desktop now
[16:56] <viridior> i was able to get to a command prompt very quickly, didn't test networking
[16:56] <Managu_tb> viridior: I'm still fooling around with OE; I had really bad experience with Gentoo for x86 some years ago, and haven't looked back since
[16:57] <viridior> i doubt you will find OE any better ;)
[16:57] <Managu_tb> oh, I dunno. I can get X up and running on a non AI-kernel with OE =p
[16:58] <viridior> thats not hard if your using pre-compiled binaries. Try getting non-recipe packages to work
[17:00] <Managu_tb> sure, but then, that's the point.
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[17:01] * viridior 122/155
[17:17] * ryuo keeps score.
[17:17] <ryuo> :P
[17:18] <viridior> 140/155, this is the first time of been able to cross compile the entire OS up to xorg-server without intervention... looks like i have good patches now ;)
[17:19] <viridior> usually perl, python, glib, glibc, or gcc kill it by now, but they all cross compiled fine
[17:19] * viridior glee
[17:22] <ryuo> heh.
[17:30] <Managu_tb> cross compiling gcc?
[17:35] <viridior> yep
[17:35] <viridior> and glibc
[17:35] <viridior> compiling gtk+ now :/
[17:35] <viridior> 149/155
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[17:41] * viridior breathes a sigh of relief
[17:42] <viridior> gtk+ cross compiled correctly :)
[18:01] <viridior> done :)
[18:01] * viridior compiled openbox, fluxbox, etc
[18:01] <viridior> err... compiles ;)
[18:13] * viridior starts building android on the side
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[20:16] <ryuo> viridior: we can rebuild him we have the technology :P
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[20:43] <viridior> ryuo: hes built :/
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[21:19] <viridior> night
[21:38] <`Mace> viridior: get it going? :)
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