#touchbook IRC Log


IRC Log for 2009-09-18

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[0:01] <mjr> no
[0:01] <koen> an openmoko device?
[0:01] <mjr> yes
[0:01] <koen> ah, that's why your nick rings a bell
[0:03] <mjr> probably
[0:04] * Meiz_n810 (n=Meizirkk@padedu-62-165-142-134.phnet.fi) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[0:36] <Corsac> eheh, the embbeded world is small :)
[0:45] * Meiz_n810 (n=Meizirkk@padedu-62-165-142-134.phnet.fi) has joined #Touchbook
[1:00] <mjr> "funky linux gadget world" in my case more like it :]
[1:00] <mjr> not that into generic embedded
[1:20] * Anges (n=Anges@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-173-3.adsl.proxad.net) has joined #touchbook
[1:24] * blunderer (n=tristan@LPuteaux-156-15-47-90.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #touchbook
[1:30] <Meiz_n810> it looks like the current kernel is missing Sgx and neon stuff?
[1:30] <Corsac> (sgx? neon?)
[1:37] <Meiz_n810> oh.. i don't actuallyh know if TB has NEON O_o
[1:39] <Meiz_n810> and kernel is '.29 so it doesn't have sgx modules built in .. oh i so should stop taking about thing i have no idea about :(
[1:45] <koen> the "finger" interface uses clutter, which uses the sgx
[1:45] <koen> and both pixman and mplayer use NEON asm, so NEON is enabled as well
[1:45] <koen> just do zcat /proc/config.gz | grep NEON
[1:54] * oly (n=oly@82-45-113-145.cable.ubr02.maid.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #touchbook
[2:28] * robclark (n=robclark@nat/ti/x-mogijzfjidouewaq) has joined #touchbook
[2:29] * Q_Continuum (n=Q_Contin@75-168-114-76.mpls.qwest.net) has joined #touchbook
[2:32] * djbclark (i=djbclark@pdpc/supporter/base/djbclark) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[2:32] * djbclark (i=djbclark@208-78-97-186.slicehost.net) has joined #touchbook
[4:06] * michael79 (n=michael@ has joined #touchbook
[4:06] <michael79> hello everyone
[4:06] <michael79> this is the channel for alwaysinnovating's touchbook, right? :)
[4:10] <michael79> I was wondering about the size of the keyboard - how much smaller is it compared to a standard keyboard?
[4:11] <michael79> eg. my gf's samsung netbook has a 93% size compared to a standard one - that's what I mean :)
[4:16] <michael79> also, the arm omap3, which type of omap3? I read on Wikipedia that there are different specs - I was wondering about the model of omap3 chip.
[4:20] * robclark (n=robclark@nat/ti/x-mogijzfjidouewaq) Quit ()
[4:27] * blunderer (n=tristan@LPuteaux-156-15-47-90.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[4:29] <michael79> ah I found the cpu spec, should be a 600Mhz 3530, right?
[4:29] <ratonk__> michael79: i don't have any tb now, but according to the info i saw it is around 94% i think
[4:29] <ratonk__> michael79:you got all info on website i think
[4:29] <michael79> ratonk__: that should be just doable - I need some decent keys :)
[4:32] <michael79> another q :) i would like to run Arch GNU/Linux on it - is the touchscreen interface that comes on the default OS installation installable on another distro as well?
[4:35] <michael79> also wondering if the accelerometer feature still works on another distro - are all those device drivers open source?
[4:35] <martinh> all those questions are probably answered in the forums.
[4:36] <michael79> ok - I'll grep through the forums then :)
[4:36] <michael79> thanks anyway ;)
[4:36] <martinh> i mean. . .the short answers are yea, everything you want is doable. . .
[4:37] <martinh> but, to figure out how, you'll have to read the forums and ask questions there.
[4:37] <michael79> I see, no problem... just that the forums seem to be offline atm
[4:37] <michael79> I get a page not found error
[4:47] * Meiz_n810 (n=Meizirkk@padedu-62-165-142-134.phnet.fi) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[4:52] * MaceN8x0 (n=macer@m4b5736d0.tmodns.net) has joined #touchbook
[4:58] <michael79> hi MaceN8x0
[5:06] <michael79> :)
[5:06] <michael79> MaceN8x0: you ordered one? what's the waiting time for europe, anyone know that?
[5:07] <michael79> ow :s
[5:10] * Meizirkki (n=Meizirkk@ has joined #touchbook
[5:14] <michael79> any idea why it takes so long?
[5:14] <michael79> I mean I know there's a backlog, but since May seems a bit long
[5:23] <michael79> does anyone know if the keyboard has a windows key? would seem a bit odd to me :)
[5:25] <Corsac> http://www.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/always_innovating_touch_book-540x405.jpg
[5:26] <michael79> oooh, very nice :)
[5:27] * Meiz_n810 (n=Meizirkk@bbwirelessgw2-feeedc00-64.dhcp.inet.fi) has joined #Touchbook
[5:29] <michael79> it's a really nice device - there's not much that i don't like about it
[5:30] <michael79> one thing would be the small right shift key :D
[5:30] <Corsac> I don't use the right shift
[5:30] <Corsac> but I guess I'll quickly hate the inverted fn/ctrl layout
[5:30] <michael79> what if you want to type a capital 'L' for instance? :)
[5:31] <michael79> hmm.. .the ctrl fn layout is the same as on my hp laptop
[5:31] <Meizirkki> Corsac, ctrl/fn seems to be in correct places
[5:31] <Corsac> no
[5:31] <Corsac> well
[5:32] <Corsac> depends on what you're used to
[5:32] <Meizirkki> ah
[5:32] <Corsac> ThinkPad use Fn-Ctrl
[5:32] <Corsac> michael79: Left shift + l?
[5:32] <michael79> Corsac: you got me there, I meant capital 'something else on the left side' :D
[5:33] <michael79> sorry for the attention deficit, am at work
[5:33] <michael79> slow day :D
[5:33] <Corsac> michael79: still :)
[5:33] <Corsac> I never use the right shift key
[5:33] <michael79> lol
[5:35] <michael79> I would just love to get one because it looks so hackable - looks like there's a lot of extra room on the inside
[5:36] <Meizirkki> not that much
[5:36] <koen> Corsac: my dell from work has ctrl-fn and my powerbook has fn-ctrl
[5:36] <koen> my biggest problem with the TB keyboard is the "left handed" space bar
[5:36] <Meizirkki> michael79, see http://alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/Bottom_part http://alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/Top_part
[5:37] * koen uses his right thumb for space, which doesn't work on TB
[5:37] <michael79> koen: yeah that could be a problem - I do the same
[5:38] <michael79> Meizirkki: thanks, looking at it
[5:38] * asciiforever (n=asciifor@74-140-212-76.dhcp.insightbb.com) has joined #touchbook
[5:41] <dpb> hmm, that indeed looks a bit small.. and too much to the left..
[5:50] * hollala1 (n=hollala@f048238014.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #touchbook
[5:51] <michael79> the screen is matte right?
[5:52] * michael79 hates glossy screens :)
[5:53] <koen> it isn't glossy
[5:53] <michael79> yay
[5:53] * dirk2 (n=dirk@p5B04059D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #touchbook
[5:54] * jofjdi (n=jsherman@user-10lfcke.cable.mindspring.com) Quit ()
[6:00] <michael79> :)
[6:00] <michael79> erm... wrong window lol
[6:08] * jofjdi (n=jsherman@ has joined #touchbook
[6:20] <dpb> It does, but the right side shift is small
[6:20] <dpb> Which is quite ok for me, as I never use that key. Could map it to something else...
[6:20] <dpb> Where is the insert key on it?
[6:21] * koen wonders why people doing the build instructions in the wiki are using the 'beagleboard' machine instead of the 'omap3-touchbook' one
[6:21] <koen> but then again, wikis are always wrong, as are fora
[6:22] <mjr> not quite
[6:22] <dpb> MaceN8x0: but the touchpad is a bit broken apparently, can't scroll with it..
[6:22] <mjr> apparently it's based on the beagleboard but somewhat evolved
[6:22] <michael79> dpb: the touchscreen should fix that
[6:22] <koen> touchscreen, lcd, acceleration sensors, etc
[6:23] <michael79> I'm a touchpad afficionado myself, but the touchscreen should fill in some gaps
[6:23] <dpb> michael79: yeah, maybe, but I don't know about using the touchscreen with the netbook mode...
[6:23] * Meiz__n810 (n=Meizirkk@bbwirelessgw2-feeedc00-64.dhcp.inet.fi) has joined #Touchbook
[6:24] <Corsac> touchpad definitely just suck
[6:24] <koen> dpb: hint: the touchbook will fall over if you use it in netbook mode
[6:24] * Meizirkki (n=Meizirkk@ Quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
[6:24] <dpb> yeah, that too
[6:24] <koen> it's top heavy
[6:25] <dpb> koen: well, one could have a pile of books behind it or something ;)
[6:25] <michael79> lol
[6:25] <michael79> can't you add some additional counterweight?
[6:25] <koen> MaceN8x0: AI already does that :)
[6:26] <koen> see http://alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/Bottom_part
[6:26] <mjr> couple of layers of lead paint on the bottom...
[6:27] * Meiz_n810 (n=Meizirkk@bbwirelessgw2-feeedc00-64.dhcp.inet.fi) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[6:27] <honk> koen: woah, there's plenty of room for a larger battery ^^
[6:28] <koen> in the top part as well
[6:28] <koen> so, who's the first to create a 45 hour uptime touchbook?
[6:29] <dpb> hrmm, the AI wiki is quite slow :(
[6:30] * Meizirkki (n=Meizirkk@bbwirelessgw2-feeedc00-64.dhcp.inet.fi) has joined #touchbook
[6:30] <honk> MaceN8x0: sounds more like some netbooks are missing a few counter weights :]
[6:31] <honk> *waves hand* there are no delays
[6:32] <dpb> Your jedi tricks don't work with us.
[6:34] <michael79> :)
[6:40] <Meizirkki> Shift and Spacebar are small, look at the backspace :P
[6:40] <Meizirkki> http://alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/images/c/cc/MiddlePartOpen.png
[6:41] <michael79> holy cr*p :D
[6:41] <michael79> that's one small useful button
[6:41] <michael79> I can see myself typing \'s instead of backspacing already
[6:42] <michael79> I hope it's something I can get used to - considering ordering one anyway just for the heck of it...
[6:43] <mjr> hmm, one could probably make a reasonably sane Finnish keymapping there
[6:44] <asciiforever> for what it's worth, i haven't had any trouble hitting backspace
[6:44] <asciiforever> it's small, but it seems to be in the right spot for me
[6:44] * Meizirkki is satisfied with the size of the Enter-button
[6:44] <michael79> asciiforever: I don't exactly have small hands :)
[6:44] <asciiforever> same here
[6:44] <michael79> brb smokebreak
[6:45] <asciiforever> but my only real issues are the spacebar sitting too far left and hitting home instead of enter
[6:45] * mjr is kinda itching to order even if I decided to wait a bit for some final words on the usb thing...
[6:47] <Meizirkki> http://alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/File:BottomPartWeights.png
[6:47] <Meizirkki> i'm gonne remove those immediately
[6:49] <mjr> you do know they're there for a reason, yes? :]
[6:50] <honk> well.. if he's not using the touchbook in such a way that they're relevant, removing 'em might be a good idea ;)
[6:50] * blunderer (n=tristan@LPuteaux-156-15-47-90.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #touchbook
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[6:50] * blunderer (n=tristan@LPuteaux-156-15-47-90.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #touchbook
[6:51] <Corsac> honk: I'm not sure there's a way to use the touchbook without them
[6:51] <Corsac> I mean, in netbook mode
[6:51] <Corsac> in tablet mode the keyboard isn't even plugged
[6:53] <honk> you can use the keyboard part as extra battery in tablet mode
[6:53] <honk> just plug the screen onto the keyboard backwards and close it :]
[7:01] * mrwoo (n=kurtis@ has left #touchbook
[7:17] * matejcik (n=matejcik@nat/novell/x-oqhbayqevkavccqr) has joined #touchbook
[7:18] <matejcik> hey everyone
[7:18] <matejcik> so. folks. should i preorder a touchbook? :e)
[7:21] <asciiforever> of course, but why should you listen to us?
[7:22] <honk> he just needs someone to confirm his decision :)
[7:22] <matejcik> because some of you might have actual experience with the device and discourage me
[7:22] <matejcik> okay i admit, that was a trick question. let me rephrase :e)
[7:23] <matejcik> i like the concept (obviously, i wouldn't be here if i didn't) and i'm not scared of software issues. as a developer/enthusiast, i believe that everything in software can be fixed (one day, anyway)
[7:24] <matejcik> what bothers me is that nobody ever told me how the thing physically "feels", how it handles, if there are any problems that can't be fixed in software, stuff like that
[7:24] <asciiforever> well, let's see...
[7:25] <asciiforever> the back panel feels slightly loose, because it can be removed of course
[7:25] <asciiforever> doesn't bother me, but it adds a bit to the "cheaply made" feel i guess
[7:25] <asciiforever> a couple of keys on the keyboard are oddly placed
[7:26] <asciiforever> the touchscreen requires more pressure to register a touch than i'm used to
[7:27] <asciiforever> it is a little top-heavy, but i find the angle it can open to without tipping is acceptable
[7:28] <matejcik> sounds pretty fine so far
[7:28] <asciiforever> the touchpad is kind of wonky, and its mouse buttons are more spongy than clicky
[7:28] <michael79> spongy?
[7:28] <matejcik> what do you mean by "wonky"? :e)
[7:29] <asciiforever> regarding the mouse buttons, i mean they don't have a nice solid click feel when you press them. they work fine, but some people would and have complained
[7:30] <michael79> oh, you mean more of a plastic feel instead of a metal feel?
[7:30] <matejcik> okay, and how about tapping on the touchpad?
[7:31] <asciiforever> kind of. and i haven't had any problem registering taps on the touchpad. the touchpad has more of a cursor movement issue. i'm not sure if it just needs better configuration in software or if the hardware just isn't sensitive enough.
[7:32] <asciiforever> it's hardly enough to make it unusable, but you either leave it at the default and have a cursor that you can move a couple inches per finger sweep, or you lower the threshold and raise the acceleration and have something that gets a little squirrely sometimes.
[7:32] <michael79> in my experience a lot of netbooks have very sensitive touchpads... think it's because they're tiny :)
[7:33] * honk doesnt understand why anyone would use a touchpad when there's a touchscreen available ;P
[7:33] <honk> on the other hand.. I dont understand why anyone uses a touchpad anyway - worst input device ever :]
[7:33] <asciiforever> as was mentioned earlier, poking at the screen in netbook mode doesn't help any with the top-heaviness aspect.
[7:33] <michael79> true honk :-)
[7:34] <michael79> honk: well, not true on the worst input device ever :p I'm addicted to the touchpad, although I know a lot of people who hate it... I can't stand the small joysticks myself
[7:34] <asciiforever> also, the gui buttons can be a bit small to go aiming at with a finger
[7:34] <dpb> honk: much better than a mouse
[7:34] <michael79> I think there 's a new sort of optical mouse input device coming on some devices
[7:35] <honk> dpb: pah
[7:35] <honk> either a mouse if you've got the space - or a trackball if you dont
[7:35] <honk> anything else is crap =D
[7:35] * michael79 hates trackballs as well :D matter of taste really
[7:35] <honk> though the nub is still better than the touchpad ;D
[7:35] <dpb> mouse is a broken concept, they require too much hand movement to be effective
[7:36] <matejcik> i tend to like touchpads :e)
[7:36] * honk shudders
[7:36] <dpb> (well, except for mouse-only systems)
[7:36] <matejcik> any idea if the tb touchpad can recognize two- and three-finger taps?
[7:37] <matejcik> some pages suggest that all touchpads can do it with the right drivers, but i don't know anything about it
[7:37] <asciiforever> if i had to guess i'd say no, but i haven't seen those claims
[7:38] <matejcik> well my laptop touchpad (synaptics device) can do it, even though it was never advertised as multitouch, and windows drivers can't use it.
[7:38] <michael79> something else comes to mind: the touchscreen, can that be configured for pressure sensitivity or are you stuck with what the hardware presents you with?
[7:38] <dpb> there's atleast one hardware fault in the touchpad
[7:38] <dpb> you can't use it to scroll
[7:39] <asciiforever> isn't scrollability a software thing?
[7:39] <matejcik> should be, afaik
[7:39] <michael79> I think you can fix that in software actually...
[7:39] <dpb> apparently not, gregoire said there's a component missing
[7:39] <asciiforever> huh, interesting
[7:39] <matejcik> waitaminute
[7:40] <matejcik> are you saying that it won't recognize movement on its right side, for example?
[7:40] <dpb> the touchpad manufacturer forgot to add one transistor (or something)
[7:40] <dpb> yes, exactly that
[7:40] <matejcik> well.
[7:41] <asciiforever> it just seems to me like it would have to report where you're touching it in order to do its job
[7:41] <dpb> I don't have a device myself though, so I can't prove it.
[7:41] <matejcik> that's disappointing. but if it's one transistor missing, it just might be fixable in hardware
[7:41] <michael79> I still think it can be solved in software :p is it a synaptics device?
[7:41] <dpb> gregoire said one can solder it in
[7:41] <matejcik> guess i'll go read through the touchpad driver
[7:41] <matejcik> in that case, it's ok. i can convince one of my solder-savvier friends to do that
[7:41] <dpb> michael79, no it isn't
[7:42] <michael79> hmm ok
[7:42] <dpb> I hope they provide instructions for that.
[7:42] <matejcik> okay, one more thing. i've been reading through the bug reports, and found something about USB power instability
[7:43] <asciiforever> as in, usb devices randomly going off?
[7:43] <asciiforever> i was about to bring up this bug: http://bugzilla.alwaysinnovating.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20
[7:44] <asciiforever> which i have not really had to deal with, but i imagine it sucks for those who have
[7:44] <matejcik> http://bugzilla.alwaysinnovating.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2 no, this is what i had in mind
[7:45] <matejcik> i think i've seen #20 somewhere in the forums and it looks very much like a software issue
[7:46] <michael79> I must say, going through the bugzilla pages... It does give me a lot of confidence to see that Gregoire is so actively involved in the whole process, and so involved with his user base
[7:46] <michael79> that might even be the thing that makes me reach for my cc right now :)
[7:49] <matejcik> michael79: i don't like how he closes so many bugs with "resolved worksforme". i'm used to using this resolution only after weeks of fruitless trying to reproduce customer issue ... but i guess that it's different with the TB, seeing as he has the same HW/OS configuration as everyone else. or it's a matter of policy
[7:50] <michael79> one last question before I order: the OS is put on an SD card, right?
[7:50] <michael79> or did I misread that
[7:50] <asciiforever> that is correct
[7:51] <michael79> which is accessible and changeable
[7:51] <asciiforever> right
[7:51] <michael79> so I can keep the supplied OS and have a second SD card with Arch for instance
[7:51] <michael79> sounds good to me ;)
[7:51] <matejcik> yea. how about card access speed? is there some noticeable problem with that, or is it "just ok" ?
[7:52] <matejcik> i've read that os update takes over 3 hours. that's pretty bad
[7:53] <asciiforever> i haven't been through an OS update. i've only had mine a week, so it came with 2009.09a on it
[7:53] <asciiforever> if you hose your provided OS though, you can reset it to "factory" condition by just wiping the 3rd partition
[7:54] <matejcik> all in all, sounds pretty good. how about that USB power issue, though?
[7:57] <asciiforever> i haven't experienced it
[7:57] <asciiforever> i also haven't tried any high power usb devices
[7:58] <matejcik> so the usual stuff like usb thumbdrives and media players should be ok?
[8:00] <asciiforever> all my thumbdrives work fine
[8:00] <asciiforever> os throws an icon for them on the desktop
[8:00] <matejcik> alright
[8:00] <matejcik> well.
[8:01] <matejcik> thank you all, and esp. you, asciiforever for detailed information
[8:01] <matejcik> i guess i'll order the thing after all
[8:01] <asciiforever> anytime
[8:02] <michael79> well, my order is in, hope I won't have to wait too long
[8:03] <asciiforever> oh, something to keep in mind
[8:04] <asciiforever> if you happen to receive one and hear something loose sliding around in the keyboard half (like i did), don't freak out (like i did)
[8:04] <honk> heh
[8:04] <asciiforever> a couple of the counterweight metal plates had come unglued in mine, and someone else's delivered the same day
[8:05] <michael79> that might be a good to remember :D
[8:06] <matejcik> haha... that's good to know. that there are things you can take out to make the whole thing lighter, if necessary :e)
[8:07] <honk> they didnt look too heavy tbh
[8:07] <matejcik> oh, one more thing. how about the hinge quality? does it hold the angle or does it tend to open/close by itself?
[8:07] <honk> and if you want to make it lighter.. dont take the keyboard part with you :]
[8:08] <asciiforever> the hinge holds well
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[8:41] <michael79> ok, thanks for the chat guys, see you later maybe
[8:41] <michael79> bye
[8:41] * michael79 (n=michael@ Quit ("leaving")
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[8:47] <ratonk__> michael79:you got all info on website i think
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[10:57] <shiznebit> channel dead ?
[10:58] <Meizirkki> yeah :P
[10:58] <shiznebit> gregiore should ship more TB's
[10:59] <shiznebit> might get more people working on it
[10:59] <Meizirkki> shiznebit, next batch shipping late septemer
[10:59] <asciiforever> that shipment still hasn't been dated yet, right?
[11:00] <shiznebit> how many will that include
[11:00] <shiznebit> 3 ?
[11:00] <asciiforever> lol
[11:00] <Meizirkki> maybe
[11:00] <Meizirkki> just kinning
[11:00] <Meizirkki> kinning??
[11:00] <Meizirkki> arg typo
[11:00] <shiznebit> big typo
[11:03] * shiznebit throws a tantrum like a kid in the supermarket
[11:03] <shiznebit> I WANT MY TOUCHBOOK !
[11:19] <drantin> same
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[12:24] <martinh> me too!
[12:24] <martinh> I want his touchbook!
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[18:24] <Virtual-penguin> how are updates managed, repository/package manager?
[18:31] * shiznebit (n=chatzill@ool-18b998ed.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[18:42] <drantin> with ipkg i'd imagine, being angstrom-based
[18:43] <drantin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipkg http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/Installing_applications_on_the_Touch_Book_OS
[18:59] <martinh> yea. somewhere they say it's angstrom based.
[19:02] <drantin> there's also apparently http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/Updater
[19:45] <Virtual-penguin> thanks
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