#touchbook IRC Log


IRC Log for 2009-09-17

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[1:42] <honk> <tommd> Anyone want to use the TB design and make one with an integrated GNU Radio and GPS?
[1:43] <honk> ^-- just plug 'em into the internal usb ports o.O
[1:47] <hyc> yeah, if you can plug into USB you can do pretty much whatever you want
[1:48] <Corsac> yup
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[2:09] <koen> hyc: you'll probably find this one interesting: http://cgit.openembedded.org/cgit.cgi/openembedded/commit/?id=cac885572c1429e0522935ffa0854bdf1ed15bcc
[2:11] <hyc> koen: oooooo, sounds cool
[2:13] <hyc> hmm. based on vo_omapfb.c, I wonder if it has the clipping/scaling problems that I just fixed in that
[2:14] <mjr> sounds potentially promising and time for me to reask a question; can one play [fullscreen] video (sd, even, mpeg4 or 2 even) reasonably without proprietary powervr blobs?
[2:14] <hyc> yes
[2:15] <hyc> the only thing that's very challenging at the moment is H.264
[2:15] <hyc> you can play full screen 1024x600 mpeg4
[2:15] <hyc> or mpeg2
[2:15] <Corsac> what about theora?
[2:15] <mjr> right-o, that's somewhat good to hear
[2:16] <hyc> those algorithms are not as CPU-intensive... I haven't tried theora
[2:16] <mjr> Corsac, good question though :)
[2:16] <hyc> And TI provides DSP codecs for mpeg2/mpeg4, so you can play those with very little CPU overhead at all
[2:17] <hyc> they also provide a H.264BP decoder, but unfortunately a lot of H.264 video out there uses MP not BP
[2:18] <hyc> I just got hold of their H.264MP/HP decoder, but it's for the DM6467, so it's not directly usable here. The DSP in the DM6467 is the same as in OMAP3530, but it's clocked about 2x as fast
[2:18] <mjr> Ah. Well, I'm somewhat less wary of closed firmware, which one could probably count those to be, so I'm probably a step closer to wanting one of these for myself then.
[2:18] <hyc> also, the DM6467 has this thing called HDVICP which is a proprietary hardware accelerator
[2:20] <hyc> at some point I may take a crack at porting it over anyway. may be able to replace the functions they call in the HDVICP library with equivalent code, even if it's slower.
[2:21] <hyc> their codec is supposed to handle full 1920x1080P, and I don't need that much performance from it.
[2:21] <mjr> (I do presume those to be proprietary even if you can get source access?)
[2:21] <mjr> yep
[2:21] <hyc> the source is proprietary, the object is freely distributable
[2:21] <mjr> yep
[2:21] <hyc> in this case, I have the blob and the header files for the libraries.
[2:22] <hyc> can probably reimplement the calls...
[2:22] <mjr> *nod*
[2:23] <mjr> well, being able to run mpeg2/4 with free software on the arm side is still at least half a plus; less potential practical issues at least
[2:24] <hyc> yeah. ffmpeg is pretty good already, but you hit the limits pretty fast
[2:25] <hyc> we're using hulu's 512x288 vp6 videos now; that is generally smooth.
[2:25] <hyc> using the hardware scaler 2x on it, 1024x576 looks pretty good on the screen
[2:26] <mjr> would be interested on how far you can stretch it with decoding theora (presumably on the cpu ;] ), as corsac wondered, but it's not a killer question for me perhaps
[2:33] <Corsac> hmhm, lots of forum mail are dropped in the spam folder
[2:33] <Corsac> X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER Improper folded header field made up entirely of
[2:33] <Corsac> whitespace (char 20 hex): Subject: ...IlN1Z2dlc3QgaW5zdGFsbCAo?=\n \n
[2:33] <Corsac> =?UTF-8?B?bW9...
[2:34] * mjr relayed the information to some other potential interested people on the finnish free software channel
[2:46] <koen> hyc: it probably has the problems you mentioned, but it's using dma framecopy
[2:47] <koen> hyc: saves about 25% cpu load in totem
[2:47] <koen> hyc: you can save an additional 40% by not using playbin
[2:47] <koen> hyc: are your scaling fixed available somewhere?
[2:47] <hyc> that sounds great
[2:48] <hyc> I sent my patches to Gregoire, but haven't done anything else with them yet
[2:48] <hyc> I can fwd to you or the oe mailing list
[2:48] <koen> hyc: forward them to bksingh@ti.com :)
[2:48] <hyc> ok
[2:49] <koen> hyc: brijesh is going to commit your dmai fixes upstream
[2:49] <hyc> great
[2:51] <koen> hyc: and please cc me (k-kooi@ti.com) :)
[2:51] <mjr> oh btw, how are the dsp video decoders hooked up as far as players/libraries go? ffmpeg, gstreamer, etc?
[2:51] * koen wishes the AI svn repos were public
[2:51] <koen> mjr: gstreamer
[2:51] <mjr> ack, thanks
[2:52] <Corsac> koen: I think that's a fair wish, but I guess it'll have to wait until AI is less overwhelmed
[2:53] <hyc> koen: sent
[2:53] <Corsac> my feeling is that they are completely busy atm, and have a lot of priority tasks to finish before adding stuff to todo list :/
[2:53] <koen> hyc: thanks
[2:53] <koen> Corsac: I know, I'm in contact with gregoire daily :)
[2:54] <Corsac> :)
[2:54] <koen> lunch time
[2:54] <hyc> koen: my email got bounced
[2:54] <hyc> rejected as spam
[2:55] <hyc> ah no
[2:55] <hyc> I typo'd your email address
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[3:06] <mjr> oh, from the pics one can guestimate to an extent what kind of usb sticks would fit inside (that's one great idea by the way), but for the thickness. Mostly wondering if a somewhat thick huawei e169 umts stick would fit in... not handy at the moment but do you have an mm number or something that'll fit?
[3:07] <mjr> again probably not a killer question, but one wonders :)
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[3:09] <hyc> looks like you have not much more space than the width of the USB connector
[3:09] <hyc> the bluetooth dongle is only about 2mm wider in each dimension
[3:09] <hyc> the wifi is a bare PCB, so quite thin
[3:11] <mjr> okay, that's what I ewxpected really
[3:11] <mjr> (so would have to see about stripping the 3g stick ;P )
[3:11] <hyc> yeah most likely
[3:11] <hyc> I think I'll stick with tethering my G1 phone
[3:13] <honk> you could just unplug the bluetooth stick if you dont need it for tethering anyway ;)
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[3:15] <hyc_tb> so, this is working again
[3:16] <hyc_tb> tethered at the moment. it doesn't always want to work...
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[3:21] <hyc_tb> cool, freshly booted, no power adapter plugged in, still worked.
[3:22] <mjr> oh yeah, I'll bug you with one more (nonessential) thing for now; I don't suppose there's gonna be localized keyboard variants such as scandinavian anytime soon? :]
[3:22] <hyc_tb> both wifi and bluetooth still plugged in. so the problems I had before don't seem to be USB power after all
[3:23] <hyc> mjr: dunno, probably better to ask that in the forum
[3:23] <mjr> ack
[3:24] <mjr> (I could deal with a us keyboard fine, just that if there'd come along a better-suited version shortly after, it'd be a slight bummer)
[3:24] <hyc> If you look at the keyboard, the space is quite constrained
[3:25] <hyc> you can of course remap keys
[3:25] <mjr> yes; I didn't think it was likely, just questionworthy
[3:25] <hyc> but I doubt they'd physically reposition anything. dunno.
[3:25] <mjr> and yes, that's the first order recourse for it
[3:31] <mjr> yeah, seems unlikely
[3:32] <mjr> what's your relationship to the project, btw, since you seem to not be part of "them" but seem to have stuff like TI video decoder sources ;)
[3:35] <hyc> nope, I don't have source code
[3:35] <hyc> just the binary modules they make available, like their codec engine packages
[3:36] <mjr> ah, so reverse-engineering then; I got the wrong impression, my bad :]
[3:36] <hyc> but each of those is essentially a library; you have to link them together with a bit of a wrapper into a "codec server"
[3:37] <hyc> yeah, pretty much. not sure at the moment if it's a worthwhile path or not. might still be easier to just compile ffmpeg for the DSP
[3:44] <mjr> right-o
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[3:46] <hyc> ok, enough fun for tonight. seeya...
[3:47] <mjr> ta, thanks for the answers
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[9:20] <ratonk__> i will try tom
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[10:32] <tommd> honk: That would work for the GPS, but neither the USRP or the USRP2 are small enough or low enough power to fit inside/run off the batteries. So integration and dropping of various components would be necessary.
[10:33] <Corsac> USRP?
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[10:53] <tommd> Corsac: GnuRadio hardware
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[11:19] <Corsac> tommd: ok
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[12:02] <Corsac> hmh, seems that I found the beagleboard thread Gr??goire was speaking of
[12:02] <Corsac> http://groups.google.com/group/beagleboard/browse_thread/thread/5b8385f0bb1f63da
[12:02] <Corsac> seems that not all boards are touched
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[13:03] <kec6227> So, I just got my wifi dongle (my TB didn't ship with one initially) and that doesn't even work and throws the same dmesg error when I connect it.
[13:04] <kec6227> so I am going to try and reinstall the TB OS to make sure the kernel isn't messing up, but after that it might be a hardware problem
[13:04] <Corsac> how comes your TB came without dongle?
[13:04] <kec6227> they forgot it
[13:05] <kec6227> well thats my guess
[13:05] <kec6227> but they shipped me one quickly so it doesn't bother me
[13:05] <kec6227> but its wierd that even that doesn't seem to work correctly
[13:05] <Corsac> but yeah it seems that beagleboard has USB problems
[13:06] <kec6227> yeah I saw the post from the irc logs
[13:12] <kec6227> Guess I will just use it as a media center like I intended if that doesn't work :-\
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[13:54] <mrwoo1> why aren't the forums working right now?
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[17:59] <mrwoo> so...the link to the forums still doesn't work...
[18:04] <drantin> http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/forums/ works for me...
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[18:21] <mrwoo> oh yay
[18:21] <mrwoo> it's back
[18:24] <mrwoo> so when people are reinstalling their os, how long does it usually take them
[18:27] <ratonk__> good morning everyone
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[18:30] * drantin hasn't gotten a touchbook to install or reinstall an OS onto yet
[18:36] * mjr is kind of in a holding pattern to see how the usb trouble some people are having pans out...
[18:37] <shiznebit> hmmm, it will be fixed eventually
[18:37] <shiznebit> time is all thats needed
[18:38] <mrwoo> idk
[18:39] <mrwoo> the usb stuff is really annoying at the moment
[18:42] <mjr> shiznebit, no doubt, but I'm rather wary of purchasing hardware before it's shown to be handleable in software; I've done my quota of fixer-up hardware for a while ;]
[18:49] <shiznebit> lets just be fair and say this one of the first ARM netbooks
[18:49] <jofjdi> I'm thinking that I'd be willing to try the latest hardware version coming out at the end of the month anyway - the specs are so close to what I want in a tablet (at the price point) that it's hard to resist
[18:49] <jofjdi> but I do accept it's a bit of a beta platform
[18:50] <shiznebit> of course there will be problems
[18:50] <shiznebit> but once they are rolling them out, most problems shouldn't persist
[18:50] <jofjdi> the internal usb ports are an awesome feature
[18:51] <shiznebit> it does bring out interesting possibilities
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[18:56] <mjr> they are, even if most are pretaken (well, if one wants bt and wifi anyway)
[18:57] <mjr> and I do find it hard to resist, but I think I will for a while longer for possible early hardware bugs (not to ruin anyone's buzz, but I had to have buzz post-fixed on my Neo Freerunner ;P )
[18:59] <jofjdi> oh, absolutely - anyone who is looking for a polished product and not a bit of a hobbyist device should probably wait a bit longer
[18:59] <jofjdi> it seems pretty clear they're looking for early adopters to help them tune the product to get it ready for a wider audience
[18:59] * drantin has a gp2x and an XO-1, he's not afraid of hobbyist devices
[19:02] <mjr> oh I'm certainly looking for a hobbyist device, just right now I'd like a bit more reassurance that the hobbyism shouldn't include actual soldering by necessity ;P
[19:02] <mjr> (and I have a Neo 1973, Neo Freerunner and a XO-1 ;)
[19:02] <shiznebit> did those require solder ?
[19:02] <jofjdi> If I had more time to add value to the product development process, I'd have pre-ordered, but I'm just too busy for the early stages so I wanted to wait until others got to report the big stuff (and I have a soldering station set up in the basement!)
[19:02] <mjr> well, FR did
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[19:53] <drantin> I'm not afraid of soldering either, although neither of those required it, I have had to fix other things before...
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[20:05] <tommd> mmm, solder tastes good!
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[20:13] <mrwoo> so hey guys, how do you get the magnets appart?
[20:13] <mrwoo> they came stuck together
[20:16] <drantin> I'll let you know once I get mine, and I don't have a shipping confirmation yet
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[20:22] <tommd> mrwoo: There is a video - put them on a counter with one hanging off the edge and move the one off the edge and thus apart.
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[21:01] <tommd> Does anyone know of AI plans to put together a real OS site with source repositories, build instructions etc? Not trying to sound negative but this is somewhat lacking.
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[21:38] <ratonk__> good morning everyone
[21:39] <tommd> Good morning!
[21:39] <tommd> In your timezone anyway.
[21:41] * drantin recommends this timezone: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
[21:56] * Meiz_n810 (n=Meizirkk@bbwirelessgw2-feeedc00-64.dhcp.inet.fi) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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[22:28] * Meiz_n810 (n=Meizirkk@padedu-62-165-142-134.phnet.fi) has joined #Touchbook
[22:29] <Meiz_n810> morning
[22:29] <Meiz_n810> i just got scared about the USB issue..
[22:29] <Meiz_n810> i read through all the posts of http://groups.google.com/group/beagleboard/browse_thread/thread/5b8385f0bb1f63da
[22:30] <Meiz_n810> and in half year they haven't found a solution..
[22:32] * Meiz_n810 became avare that he's about to take a 400? risk with 2/5 possibility of losing :(
[22:34] <mjr> yeah, it is somewhat disconcerting, especially with much of the device relying on usb (and those nifty internal plugs)
[22:35] <Meiz_n810> without usb, where's nothing.. no keyboard, wifi, bt, ethernet .. omg
[22:36] <mjr> I've pretty much come to the conclusion that I will order one, but not before further clarity on that one issue
[22:36] <mjr> the other stuff I'll live with
[22:47] <Corsac> Meiz_n810: thought we don't exactly know if the same proportions apply
[22:48] <mjr> is the short of it then "2/5 of beagleboards have usb problems, 3/5 work fine"?
[22:48] <Meiz_n810> yes
[22:49] <mjr> ack; well, hopefully they can improve the yield (and recognize duds before shipping...)
[22:50] <Meiz_n810> and 2/5 is what the guy working at beagle says.. even though i believe him i'm at the same time wondering if the problem appears with even more boards ...
[22:51] <mjr> yeah, well, sounds like there's something not quite right but almost right enough in some boards...
[22:51] <Corsac> 60%, 32%, 8%
[22:52] <Meiz_n810> Gerald says it is NOT an HW issue, but none of the sw fixes are working for all boards :(
[22:52] * thirdhandinfo (n=thirdhan@ Quit ()
[22:53] <mjr> that would be good, but I'll rather not risk it at this point
[22:54] <Corsac> Gr??goire you mean?
[22:57] <Meiz_n810> i mean Gerald in the googlegroups thread
[22:58] <Meiz_n810> he's talking about beagleboards ofcourse
[22:58] <Corsac> ok
[22:59] * tommd (n=Thomas_D@70-59-141-128.ptld.qwest.net) has joined #touchbook
[22:59] * marcoil (n=marcoil@jalfrezi.collabora.co.uk) has left #touchbook
[23:01] <killring> meiz_n810: are you really making an apples to apples comparison here since the beagleboard uses a different board layout and is likely to have its own, unique set of problems?
[23:02] <killring> sorry, I meant to say 'touch book uses a different board layout'
[23:02] <Meiz_n810> not really, i'm just scared atm. :P
[23:03] <killring> fair enough
[23:03] <mjr> considering Gr??goire participated in the thread commenting about similar problems and having the same transceiver as the BB, I wouldn't discount the relevance altogether
[23:04] <Meiz_n810> http://alwaysinnovating.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=61 is that a similar issue?
[23:04] <killring> don't get me wrong, it sounds like there's a problem and to some degree, may be experienced by the touch book since it's *based* on the bb design. I'm just sayin' that because it's a new board design, it's likely to have its own issues that are more significant for users
[23:05] * tommd (n=Thomas_D@70-59-141-128.ptld.qwest.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[23:06] <killring> such is the price of being an early adopter of any new device. I can't tell you how many very purty, shiny apple products I've owned that have had hardware defects at least that bad
[23:07] <mjr> I can, 'cause I've not bought apple ;P But sure, shit happens with these things
[23:07] <mjr> I can tell you I've been quite one of the more patient Freerunner owners ;P
[23:10] <killring> that's my only point... every new device (and even revs of an existing device) will have some number of users experience problems that are design related
[23:10] <killring> hardware lifecycles are so short these days it's inevitable
[23:11] <killring> the most important thing is will the company that produced it make things right when the problems happen
[23:11] <mjr> of course
[23:13] <mjr> and I do trust AI to make things right, just that after going through a bit of hassle with the FR I'm personally not in the mood to dive in until this particular problem is verified to be fixable in software or a fixed hw revision arrives
[23:14] <killring> that's a good reason to wait. anyone buying the product over the next 3 months (just a guesstimate) needs to be willing to put up with some early adopter headaches or wait until it's all sorted out
[23:15] <mjr> (and yes, I expect there may be problems still, just that this one's a doozy if one is bitten by it)
[23:17] <mjr> Gerald on Beagle; "We do have a SW fix that will unlock the PHY and
[23:17] <mjr> restore the port, but I ma not in favor of that one. I would rahter stop th
[23:17] <mjr> econdition all together. "
[23:18] <mjr> reasonable wish, but wonder how transparent that sort of recovery is
[23:19] <killring> which is the right response. the sw fix probably runs the risk of being unrecoverable at the os level
[23:19] <mjr> thus the pondering
[23:20] <mjr> 'course, I'm just talking to keep me warm here, I don't really expect to make any progress here ;I
[23:20] <killring> just based on your comment about essentially not wanting to be a beta tester, even without this issue, sounds like you should wait anyway
[23:21] <killring> ai has been pretty straighforward about the software still being in the oven
[23:21] <mjr> I don't care much about the software situation
[23:22] <killring> nor I for the most part re: apps... the hardware is the big deal for me
[23:23] <mjr> just don't want the bother of potentially severely broken hardware and back-and-forth mailings and all that hassle
[23:23] <killring> right now I'm struggling with the design decisions on the display (no video out, resistive touch screen) more than anything else
[23:23] <mjr> (well, there's always the risk, of course, but minimizing known risks and all)
[23:28] <Meiz_n810> thanks Corsac, you made me feel better :)
[23:28] <Meiz_n810> killring and mjr too :)
[23:31] <mjr> well, good if my thinking out loud helped someone
[23:31] <Corsac> Meiz_n810: hmh?
[23:31] <Corsac> Meiz_n810: about the usb issue?
[23:36] <Meiz_n810> yes
[23:38] <Meiz_n810> it just made realise that it really is a whole different board and there are some ppl really working on the problem :) I also believe what Gerald says that it's not an HW issue
[23:56] * killring (n=killring@ Quit ()
[23:59] <koen> mjr: don't you have a maemo device?

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